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Subject: Re: Is Deep Blue still considered better than Deep Junior ?

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 20:11:05 08/18/02

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On August 18, 2002 at 22:05:53, Uri Blass wrote:

>On August 18, 2002 at 21:51:35, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On August 18, 2002 at 12:48:02, Chris Carson wrote:
>>
>>>On August 18, 2002 at 10:38:19, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>How would you figure that?  Deep Thought produced a 2650 rating over 25
>>>>consecutive 40/2hr games against GM players.  Anybody else done that yet?
>>>>Not that I have seen.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Deep Thought was a great piece of HW/SW for it's time.  Just a few observations
>>>when comparing to today's program:
>>>
>>>1.  DT did that aginst GM's with average ELO of 2475 (not very strong for GM's).
>>>
>>>2.  DT played against GM's that had far less experience (none) using
>>>anti-computer tatics.
>>>
>>>3.  There are a lot of tatical/strategic holes in DT games that modern
>>>commercial programs do not make.
>>>
>>>4.  Today's programs would crush DT.
>>>
>>>5.  The GM's that DJ, DF, CT, Rebel, Hiarcs, The King have played recently would
>>>crush DT.
>>>
>>>6.  DT would have no chance in a match with a 2700 GM (today) that had 100 games
>>>of preparation, Rebel played this GM even for 4 games.
>>>
>>>7.  I am pretty sure I could crush DT today.
>>>
>>>Chris
>>
>>
>>I can't prove anything about deep thought, but I'll offer you a chance to
>>put up or shut up on point 7.  Deep Thought easily beat Cray Blitz every time
>>we played (except for the first, where we could have won had we not run into
>>a serious bug).  Cray Blitz waxed Crafty in a 10 game match last year.
>>That means _you_ should be able to wax crafty on my quad xeon easily if you
>>could crush deep thought.
>>
>>Let me know when you are ready to "take the test".
>>
>>I don't believe you can do it for a minute...
>>
>>But the ball is in your court to accept the challenge...
>
>1)Deep thought did not beat the same cray blitz that beated crafty.
>The cray blitz that beated crafty could search more nodes per second
>thanks to better hardware.

Where is this coming from?  We played deep though thru 1994.  Cray hasn't
come out with anything new since then, in the super-computer arena...



>
>2)The time control of the games crafty-cray blitz was not 120/40 and I suspect
>that at 120/40 crafty could do better thanks to better search rules(cray blitz
>used R=1 when Crafty is using R=2/3 for null move pruning)

The games were blitz, because I could not possibly play such long games on
that machine..
But Chris didn't specify a time control.  If he can crush DT at standard,
then he should do well at blitz....

>
>3)Winning is also not transitive so even if you were right it was not a proof.
>


It is a pretty good indicator here.  Computers are not that dissimilar to each
other.  If he could "crush" DT, then he could "crush" most any computer today.
I don't believe it...



>4)The result btween deep thought and cray blitz does not prove that deep thought
>was better.

It doesn't prove that they were equal, and it doesn't prove CB was better.
I don't know about you, but I can only draw one conclusion myself...



>
>Junior was leading 5-0 against Fritz and lost the match 14-12 so using a small
>number of games when in one of them cray blitz could win is not a convincing
>evidence.
>
>Uri


For _this_ discussion it is good enough since at worst, they might be pretty
close, and that really wasn't the case as I certainly know.  I simply don't
like nonsense statements/claims from people with absolutely no hope of backing
up their statements with anything concrete...

This is just another example of that...

I'd be willing to play him on a single pentium pro 200 cpu.  I know how well
Crafty Plays on that hardware...  at 40/2, so he'd better be an IM at least to
think about "crushing it"...



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