Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 14:12:05 08/19/02
Go up one level in this thread
On August 19, 2002 at 13:36:49, Chris Carson wrote: >On August 19, 2002 at 11:27:15, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On August 19, 2002 at 09:12:31, Chris Carson wrote: >> >>>On August 18, 2002 at 21:51:35, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On August 18, 2002 at 12:48:02, Chris Carson wrote: >>>> >>>>>On August 18, 2002 at 10:38:19, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>How would you figure that? Deep Thought produced a 2650 rating over 25 >>>>>>consecutive 40/2hr games against GM players. Anybody else done that yet? >>>>>>Not that I have seen. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Deep Thought was a great piece of HW/SW for it's time. Just a few observations >>>>>when comparing to today's program: >>>>> >>>>>1. DT did that aginst GM's with average ELO of 2475 (not very strong for GM's). >>>>> >>>>>2. DT played against GM's that had far less experience (none) using >>>>>anti-computer tatics. >>>>> >>>>>3. There are a lot of tatical/strategic holes in DT games that modern >>>>>commercial programs do not make. >>>>> >>>>>4. Today's programs would crush DT. >>>>> >>>>>5. The GM's that DJ, DF, CT, Rebel, Hiarcs, The King have played recently would >>>>>crush DT. >>>>> >>>>>6. DT would have no chance in a match with a 2700 GM (today) that had 100 games >>>>>of preparation, Rebel played this GM even for 4 games. >>>>> >>>>>7. I am pretty sure I could crush DT today. >>>>> >>>>>Chris >>>> >>>> >>>>I can't prove anything about deep thought, but I'll offer you a chance to >>>>put up or shut up on point 7. Deep Thought easily beat Cray Blitz every time >>>>we played (except for the first, where we could have won had we not run into >>>>a serious bug). Cray Blitz waxed Crafty in a 10 game match last year. >>>>That means _you_ should be able to wax crafty on my quad xeon easily if you >>>>could crush deep thought. >>>> >>>>Let me know when you are ready to "take the test". >>>> >>>>I don't believe you can do it for a minute... >>>> >>>>But the ball is in your court to accept the challenge... >>> >>>Here are all the PGN's for DT and DB. Cherry pick any you like. I do not think >>>DT/DB or HSU needs the help, their accomplishments were very good, but no need >>>to make them out to be better than today's programs or mis-represent them, you >>>do more harm than help. >>> >>>Here are the ELO's against FIDE rated players for DT/DB and Commercials, the >>>commercials have passed DT and DB96 ELO performance, DB97 will fall when it >>>falls: >>> >>>PGN's: http://home.interact.se/~w100107/welcome.htm >>> >>>Ratings HvC: http://home.interact.se/~w100107/manmachine.htm >>> >>>I am done discussing this with you unless you can "show with PGN's" something >>>different. >>> >>>Chris >> >> >>I never collected DT pgns. However, I _know_ what happened to win the >>Fredkin prize. The opponents and results _might_ be in an older ISSUE of >>the JICCA. I will check when I have time... >> >>I haven't seen _any_ results where a micro produced a 2650 over 25 consecutive >>games. Yes, you can cherry-pick a tournament here and there. But 25 games >>is at least 3 events in a row.... > >You ignore two points, or at least discount them: > >1. Commercial programs can be played anytime. A GM played 100 games against >Rebel, I will ask Ed what the score was, then played a 4 game match. DT/DB did >not allow people to play prep games, you have held it against the commercials in >the past, but not DT/DB. DT did play a lot of games however, but noone >individual had a lot of games against it. A few did, but that is the way it goes, of course. > >2. Anti-computer tactics. This would reduce DT rating by 100 or more points >and a second hundred point reduction if the 25 games were match play. Most of >the commercials games are match play, in tournament they do a lot better (about >100 points or more) I don't believe this is as true as you think. First, most GM players are _not_ using anti-computer yet. A few do. But then again, a few did back in the 1980's and 1990's as well. So that hasn't changed much at all. It _may_ change in the future as the micros continue to get stronger, however. But today, I don't believe most GM-level players even know what anti-computer means, other than "they hate 'em and don't want 'em in the tournaments." > >Again, DT/DB was great, HSU deserves a lot of credit. The commercials have >exceded it thought, DB97 would be crushed by Kramnik or Kasparov with >preparation games. Just my opinion, but based on DT/DB and commercial >performance. I don't believe _any_ GM would be able to "crush" deep blue 1997. Not now. Not _ever_. Perhaps beat it 3 of every 4 games? Maybe, with some luck. But not "crushing"...
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