Author: Chris Carson
Date: 14:44:36 08/19/02
Go up one level in this thread
On August 19, 2002 at 17:12:05, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On August 19, 2002 at 13:36:49, Chris Carson wrote: > >>On August 19, 2002 at 11:27:15, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On August 19, 2002 at 09:12:31, Chris Carson wrote: >>> >>>>On August 18, 2002 at 21:51:35, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>> >>>>>On August 18, 2002 at 12:48:02, Chris Carson wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On August 18, 2002 at 10:38:19, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>How would you figure that? Deep Thought produced a 2650 rating over 25 >>>>>>>consecutive 40/2hr games against GM players. Anybody else done that yet? >>>>>>>Not that I have seen. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Deep Thought was a great piece of HW/SW for it's time. Just a few observations >>>>>>when comparing to today's program: >>>>>> >>>>>>1. DT did that aginst GM's with average ELO of 2475 (not very strong for GM's). >>>>>> >>>>>>2. DT played against GM's that had far less experience (none) using >>>>>>anti-computer tatics. >>>>>> >>>>>>3. There are a lot of tatical/strategic holes in DT games that modern >>>>>>commercial programs do not make. >>>>>> >>>>>>4. Today's programs would crush DT. >>>>>> >>>>>>5. The GM's that DJ, DF, CT, Rebel, Hiarcs, The King have played recently would >>>>>>crush DT. >>>>>> >>>>>>6. DT would have no chance in a match with a 2700 GM (today) that had 100 games >>>>>>of preparation, Rebel played this GM even for 4 games. >>>>>> >>>>>>7. I am pretty sure I could crush DT today. >>>>>> >>>>>>Chris >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>I can't prove anything about deep thought, but I'll offer you a chance to >>>>>put up or shut up on point 7. Deep Thought easily beat Cray Blitz every time >>>>>we played (except for the first, where we could have won had we not run into >>>>>a serious bug). Cray Blitz waxed Crafty in a 10 game match last year. >>>>>That means _you_ should be able to wax crafty on my quad xeon easily if you >>>>>could crush deep thought. >>>>> >>>>>Let me know when you are ready to "take the test". >>>>> >>>>>I don't believe you can do it for a minute... >>>>> >>>>>But the ball is in your court to accept the challenge... >>>> >>>>Here are all the PGN's for DT and DB. Cherry pick any you like. I do not think >>>>DT/DB or HSU needs the help, their accomplishments were very good, but no need >>>>to make them out to be better than today's programs or mis-represent them, you >>>>do more harm than help. >>>> >>>>Here are the ELO's against FIDE rated players for DT/DB and Commercials, the >>>>commercials have passed DT and DB96 ELO performance, DB97 will fall when it >>>>falls: >>>> >>>>PGN's: http://home.interact.se/~w100107/welcome.htm >>>> >>>>Ratings HvC: http://home.interact.se/~w100107/manmachine.htm >>>> >>>>I am done discussing this with you unless you can "show with PGN's" something >>>>different. >>>> >>>>Chris >>> >>> >>>I never collected DT pgns. However, I _know_ what happened to win the >>>Fredkin prize. The opponents and results _might_ be in an older ISSUE of >>>the JICCA. I will check when I have time... >>> >>>I haven't seen _any_ results where a micro produced a 2650 over 25 consecutive >>>games. Yes, you can cherry-pick a tournament here and there. But 25 games >>>is at least 3 events in a row.... >> >>You ignore two points, or at least discount them: >> >>1. Commercial programs can be played anytime. A GM played 100 games against >>Rebel, I will ask Ed what the score was, then played a 4 game match. DT/DB did >>not allow people to play prep games, you have held it against the commercials in >>the past, but not DT/DB. DT did play a lot of games however, but noone >>individual had a lot of games against it. > >A few did, but that is the way it goes, of course. > > >> >>2. Anti-computer tactics. This would reduce DT rating by 100 or more points >>and a second hundred point reduction if the 25 games were match play. Most of >>the commercials games are match play, in tournament they do a lot better (about >>100 points or more) > >I don't believe this is as true as you think. First, most GM players are _not_ >using anti-computer yet. A few do. But then again, a few did back in >the 1980's and 1990's as well. So that hasn't changed much at all. It _may_ >change in the future as the micros continue to get stronger, however. But >today, I don't believe most GM-level players even know what anti-computer >means, other than "they hate 'em and don't want 'em in the tournaments." > >> >>Again, DT/DB was great, HSU deserves a lot of credit. The commercials have >>exceded it thought, DB97 would be crushed by Kramnik or Kasparov with >>preparation games. Just my opinion, but based on DT/DB and commercial >>performance. > >I don't believe _any_ GM would be able to "crush" deep blue 1997. Not now. >Not _ever_. Perhaps beat it 3 of every 4 games? Maybe, with some luck. But >not "crushing"... Winning 3 out of 4 points is a "crushing win" in my opinion. That would be a 300 point ELO difference. That is a pretty big difference.
This page took 0 seconds to execute
Last modified: Thu, 15 Apr 21 08:11:13 -0700
Current Computer Chess Club Forums at Talkchess. This site by Sean Mintz.