Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 19:55:28 08/19/02
Go up one level in this thread
On August 19, 2002 at 17:44:36, Chris Carson wrote: >On August 19, 2002 at 17:12:05, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On August 19, 2002 at 13:36:49, Chris Carson wrote: >> >>>On August 19, 2002 at 11:27:15, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On August 19, 2002 at 09:12:31, Chris Carson wrote: >>>> >>>>>On August 18, 2002 at 21:51:35, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On August 18, 2002 at 12:48:02, Chris Carson wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On August 18, 2002 at 10:38:19, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>How would you figure that? Deep Thought produced a 2650 rating over 25 >>>>>>>>consecutive 40/2hr games against GM players. Anybody else done that yet? >>>>>>>>Not that I have seen. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Deep Thought was a great piece of HW/SW for it's time. Just a few observations >>>>>>>when comparing to today's program: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>1. DT did that aginst GM's with average ELO of 2475 (not very strong for GM's). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>2. DT played against GM's that had far less experience (none) using >>>>>>>anti-computer tatics. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>3. There are a lot of tatical/strategic holes in DT games that modern >>>>>>>commercial programs do not make. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>4. Today's programs would crush DT. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>5. The GM's that DJ, DF, CT, Rebel, Hiarcs, The King have played recently would >>>>>>>crush DT. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>6. DT would have no chance in a match with a 2700 GM (today) that had 100 games >>>>>>>of preparation, Rebel played this GM even for 4 games. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>7. I am pretty sure I could crush DT today. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Chris >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>I can't prove anything about deep thought, but I'll offer you a chance to >>>>>>put up or shut up on point 7. Deep Thought easily beat Cray Blitz every time >>>>>>we played (except for the first, where we could have won had we not run into >>>>>>a serious bug). Cray Blitz waxed Crafty in a 10 game match last year. >>>>>>That means _you_ should be able to wax crafty on my quad xeon easily if you >>>>>>could crush deep thought. >>>>>> >>>>>>Let me know when you are ready to "take the test". >>>>>> >>>>>>I don't believe you can do it for a minute... >>>>>> >>>>>>But the ball is in your court to accept the challenge... >>>>> >>>>>Here are all the PGN's for DT and DB. Cherry pick any you like. I do not think >>>>>DT/DB or HSU needs the help, their accomplishments were very good, but no need >>>>>to make them out to be better than today's programs or mis-represent them, you >>>>>do more harm than help. >>>>> >>>>>Here are the ELO's against FIDE rated players for DT/DB and Commercials, the >>>>>commercials have passed DT and DB96 ELO performance, DB97 will fall when it >>>>>falls: >>>>> >>>>>PGN's: http://home.interact.se/~w100107/welcome.htm >>>>> >>>>>Ratings HvC: http://home.interact.se/~w100107/manmachine.htm >>>>> >>>>>I am done discussing this with you unless you can "show with PGN's" something >>>>>different. >>>>> >>>>>Chris >>>> >>>> >>>>I never collected DT pgns. However, I _know_ what happened to win the >>>>Fredkin prize. The opponents and results _might_ be in an older ISSUE of >>>>the JICCA. I will check when I have time... >>>> >>>>I haven't seen _any_ results where a micro produced a 2650 over 25 consecutive >>>>games. Yes, you can cherry-pick a tournament here and there. But 25 games >>>>is at least 3 events in a row.... >>> >>>You ignore two points, or at least discount them: >>> >>>1. Commercial programs can be played anytime. A GM played 100 games against >>>Rebel, I will ask Ed what the score was, then played a 4 game match. DT/DB did >>>not allow people to play prep games, you have held it against the commercials in >>>the past, but not DT/DB. DT did play a lot of games however, but noone >>>individual had a lot of games against it. >> >>A few did, but that is the way it goes, of course. >> >> >>> >>>2. Anti-computer tactics. This would reduce DT rating by 100 or more points >>>and a second hundred point reduction if the 25 games were match play. Most of >>>the commercials games are match play, in tournament they do a lot better (about >>>100 points or more) >> >>I don't believe this is as true as you think. First, most GM players are _not_ >>using anti-computer yet. A few do. But then again, a few did back in >>the 1980's and 1990's as well. So that hasn't changed much at all. It _may_ >>change in the future as the micros continue to get stronger, however. But >>today, I don't believe most GM-level players even know what anti-computer >>means, other than "they hate 'em and don't want 'em in the tournaments." >> >>> >>>Again, DT/DB was great, HSU deserves a lot of credit. The commercials have >>>exceded it thought, DB97 would be crushed by Kramnik or Kasparov with >>>preparation games. Just my opinion, but based on DT/DB and commercial >>>performance. >> >>I don't believe _any_ GM would be able to "crush" deep blue 1997. Not now. >>Not _ever_. Perhaps beat it 3 of every 4 games? Maybe, with some luck. But >>not "crushing"... > >Winning 3 out of 4 points is a "crushing win" in my opinion. That would be a >300 point ELO difference. That is a pretty big difference. First, three out of four is 200, not 300. Second, notice I said "3 out of 4 with luck". Not 3 out of 4 consistently. I would bet that in a match between DB2 and any top GM of today, at _least_ 1/2 of the games would end in draws, and maybe more. I don't believe the GM would win all of the others by any stretch... I don't believe a GM will really _crush_ any computer now playing, personally. I believe they can win matches handily, but that is as far as I would go in predicting any outcome...
This page took 0 seconds to execute
Last modified: Thu, 15 Apr 21 08:11:13 -0700
Current Computer Chess Club Forums at Talkchess. This site by Sean Mintz.