Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 10:28:35 08/20/02
Go up one level in this thread
On August 20, 2002 at 07:21:02, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >On August 18, 2002 at 22:38:46, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >If you have been there bob why have you forgotten how VERY BAD >the games were in world champs 1980-1991. Because they weren't "very bad"... > >Complete blunders every few moves. Material getting hung every few >moves. > >Do you admit this? No. Find _any_ game by the fast machines. Cray Blitz. Belle. Deep Thought. HiTech. And show me "blunders every few moves." I _was_ there. Yes, they all made mistakes here and there. As do the programs of _today_ also... > >>On August 18, 2002 at 20:44:17, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >> >>>On August 18, 2002 at 15:27:44, José Carlos wrote: >>> >>>The thing is: deep blue can't train at all. It's a hardware chip. >>>Incompatible hardware design which only works for that 0.60. It's >>>not even Verilog. So obviously my comparision was very good! >>> >>>>On August 18, 2002 at 12:41:58, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>>> >>>>>On August 18, 2002 at 11:31:54, Chris Taylor wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On August 18, 2002 at 09:06:02, Jorge Pichard wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Kasparov proved that he can defeat programs at fast time controls when he >>>>>>>defeated Deep Thought in a game/90 two games match in 1989. This program was >>>>>>>weaker than Deep Junior is today, as it searched well over 2,000,000 NPS, but >>>>>>>didn't have as much chess knowledge as Deep Junior. He also defeated Deep Blue >>>>>>>in 1996. This program is obviously much faster than Deep Junior is today, but in >>>>>>>my opinion Deep Junior still has more chess knowledge than Deep Blue had back in >>>>>>>1996. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>PS: It is hard to compare Deep Blue of 1997 vs Deep Junior of today, but in my >>>>>>>opinion Deep Junior Chess Knowledge could make up for the difference of Deep >>>>>>>Blue super calculating power of 1997. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Pichard. >>>>>> >>>>>>One way would be to play some games with Deep Blue and Deep Junior. Guess that >>>>>>would settle once and for all who is the strongest. Or would it just pour fuel >>>>>>on the **whos** best fire. Put together the blue box and match it up. After >>>>>>all it did beat the best player in the world at that time! The advert could be >>>>>>quite powerful. The machine that beat Kaspy goes for Junior. Methinks there >>>>>>could be some money to be made here? So this may not happen, shame? >>>>> >>>>>that will of course never happen. Just like fischer still is world >>>>>champion, deep blue will be world champion in some scientist eyes forever >>>>>too. >>>>> >>>>>To be clear. I feel that any 2650+ player of todaywill wipe out fischer >>>>>if he plays like he played in 1970. >>>>> >>>>>New theory, better tactics, more insight in strategies, better training. >>>>> >>>>>A 2650 player of today is going to crush any world champ from before Karpov >>>>>of course. No doubts. >>>>> >>>>>Robert J Fischer when the rating list started had 2780 or something. that was >>>>>superb compared to anyone in those days. He was the best back then. No one >>>>>was as good. >>>>> >>>>>But the level has improved a lot. Many will say now: "this is not a fair >>>>>compare a modern 2650 player against someone who had only an old >>>>>book from capablanca and tarrasch, if he could read german anyway". >>>>> >>>>>In fact a grandmaster did this comparision. He compared a top tournament >>>>>in 1991 with a top tournament from 1920. The grandmaster was called Nunn >>>>>if i remember well. >>>>> >>>>>The last few players in that tournament around the start of the 20th >>>>>century, they simply blundered away piece >>>>>after piece. Would be rated at most 1500 nowadays. >>>>> >>>>>The 'better players' in the tournament, considered *clear world top* >>>>>back then, they blundered on average 5 times a game. >>>>> >>>>>*no modern topgrandmaster is doing that*. >>>>> >>>>>The level of the world top increases. This is logical. Suppose you >>>>>get to the tennis court with a wooden racket. Even if you're called >>>>>John McEnroe you will be of course get completely annihilated. A wooden >>>>>racket and services of 160KM/hour (the speed at which McEnroe served) it >>>>>is no compare to the 180-220 KM/hour services of modern tennis of today. >>>>> >>>>>He won't manage a single break of course. >>>>> >>>>>This is logical. Sport progresses. computerchess even faster. saynig that >>>>>deep blue/deep thought was good in its days is justified. It beated some >>>>>GMs. That the GMs played big shit games because they cared shit as they >>>>>had nothing to proof and would get money anyway, that's no issue here. >>>>> >>>>>The issue is that it is so *obvious* that software in 2002 is much better >>>>>than in 1997 that i am amazed that only Hyatt here doubts it. >> >> >>Vincent. I have "been there" and "done that". That gives me a bit better >>perspective than you, who have only "talked about doing it" for so very long. >>I competed with them. You did not. I played games against them. You did >>not. I watched their program produce analysis. You did not. I watched them >>dismantle _everyone_ they played. You did not. >> >>My "perspective" has a bit more "meat" in it as a result. Because I _saw_ >>the thing, while you only "imagine how it must have been..." >> >>Another thing wrong with your "statement" above. I'm not arguing that >>"1997 software is better than 2002 software." I've _never_ tried to make >>that claim. I _do_ claim that the 1997 DB _system_ is better than anything >>we have today. But "system" includes hardware _and_ software... >> >>Their hardware was a _huge_ advantage that more than made up for any software >>shortcomings... IE Deep Thought played like a 2650 player while having a basic >>flaw in repetition detection in it. Their speed offset that shortcoming... >> >> >> >> >> >>>>> >>>>>>Chris >>>> >>>> Couldn't disagree more. Give Capablanca or Lasker a couple of months to train >>>>against today's GM's and they'll do quite well. Talented players learn fast, >>>>Vincent. It's not like programs. A program is "closed", it can't modify itself. >>>>A player such as Lasker would be able to catch up in very little time. >>>> As for tennis, a fair comparison would be give McEnroe a new racket and see >>>>how long does he need to get used to it. Otherwise it's not a fair comparison. >>>>Lasker brain would not be obsolete today. His knowledge would be, but knowledge >>>>can be learnt. >>>> >>>> José C.
This page took 0.01 seconds to execute
Last modified: Thu, 15 Apr 21 08:11:13 -0700
Current Computer Chess Club Forums at Talkchess. This site by Sean Mintz.