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Subject: Re: retrocomputed elo are meaningless!?

Author: martin fierz

Date: 13:01:59 08/20/02

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On August 20, 2002 at 14:19:05, Dann Corbit wrote:

>On August 20, 2002 at 05:08:33, martin fierz wrote:
>
>>On August 20, 2002 at 04:41:35, Dann Corbit wrote:
>>
>>>On August 20, 2002 at 04:24:30, Mike S. wrote:
>>>
>>>>On August 20, 2002 at 03:41:39, Dann Corbit wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Pardon my ignorance, but was Süchting a GM?
>>>>
>>>>I don't think so. Karlsbad 1911 was a before-FIDE event, so there was no GM
>>>>title comparable to the present. But a line in the slav defence is named after
>>>>him, from a Karlsbad game.
>>>>
>>>>But he was strong enough to compete in the strongest tournaments of that time,
>>>>for example:
>>>>
>>>>Duesseldorf  1908
>>>>
>>>>                            1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6
>>>>1   Marshall,Frank James    * ½ 1 ½ ½ 1 ½ 1 ½ 1 ½ 1 1 ½ 1 1  11.5/15
>>>>2   Salwe,Georg             ½ * ½ 1 ½ ½ 1 1 1 0 ½ ½ ½ 1 1 ½  10.0/15
>>>>3   Spielmann,Rudolf        0 ½ * 0 ½ 1 ½ 1 ½ ½ 1 1 0 1 1 1   9.5/15
>>>>4   John,Walter             ½ 0 1 * 0 ½ ½ 0 1 1 1 1 ½ 1 0 1   9.0/15
>>>>5   Mieses,Jacques          ½ ½ ½ 1 * 1 1 1 0 0 0 1 1 ½ ½ 0   8.5/15
>>>>6   Brody,Miklos            0 ½ 0 ½ 0 * 1 0 1 ½ ½ 1 1 1 1 0   8.0/15
>>>>7   Suechting,Hugo          ½ 0 ½ ½ 0 0 * 1 ½ ½ ½ ½ ½ ½ 1 1   7.5/15  52.00
>>>>8   Johner,Paul             0 0 0 1 0 1 0 * 1 ½ ½ 1 1 ½ 1 0   7.5/15  51.25
>>>>9   Treybal,Karel           ½ 0 ½ 0 1 0 ½ 0 * ½ ½ ½ 1 ½ 1 ½   7.0/15
>>>>10  Jakob,A                 0 1 ½ 0 1 ½ ½ ½ ½ * 0 0 ½ ½ ½ ½   6.5/15  49.25
>>>>11  Wolf,Heinrich           ½ ½ 0 0 1 ½ ½ ½ ½ 1 * 0 ½ ½ 0 ½   6.5/15  49.00
>>>>12  Von Bardeleben,Curt     0 ½ 0 0 0 0 ½ 0 ½ 1 1 * 1 ½ ½ 1   6.5/15  41.75
>>>>13  Przepiorka,Dawid        0 ½ 1 ½ 0 0 ½ 0 0 ½ ½ 0 * ½ 1 1   6.0/15
>>>>14  Von Gottschall,Hermann  ½ 0 0 0 ½ 0 ½ ½ ½ ½ ½ ½ ½ * 0 1   5.5/15  38.75
>>>>15  Swiderski,Rudolf        0 0 0 1 ½ 0 0 0 0 ½ 1 ½ 0 1 * 1   5.5/15  36.75
>>>>16  Fritz,Alexander         0 ½ 0 0 1 1 0 1 ½ ½ ½ 0 0 0 0 *   5.0/15
>>>
>>>Did he ever win a major tournament or in some way distinguish himself in a way
>>>similar to what a GM would have to do today to get a GM norm?  SCID has a rough
>>>calculation of his ELO at 2450, which would make him approximately an IM in his
>>>day.
>>
>>how does SCID get at this elo? by retrocomputing with results of players without
>>elo against players with elo? i find this quite interesting. nunn states that he
>>thinks suechting was worth 2100 elo on a good day with tail wind... this just
>>goes to show that such retrocomputed elo numbers are pretty much worthless!
>
>Nope, they have the same value as any other ELO numbers.  They show how he would
>fare against other players in the pool of talent available at the time.  (On
>average, of course).
>
>No connection whatsoever with some year 2002 IM's ELO of 2450, of course.

of course, i agree completely with what you say. that's what i meant with
meaningless - they cannot be compared with today's elo numbers. or if they are,
then you are making a big mistake, as can be seen by mr. süchtings games. i
wasn't very clear on that i guess :-)

aloha
  martin



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