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Subject: Re: DEEP BLUES AVERAGE PLY?

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 19:32:03 08/21/02

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On August 21, 2002 at 19:14:17, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:

>On August 21, 2002 at 17:52:53, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On August 21, 2002 at 17:31:53, Uri Blass wrote:
>>
>>>On August 21, 2002 at 17:21:08, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>
>>>>On August 21, 2002 at 14:48:04, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On August 21, 2002 at 14:42:49, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>Bob if you don't read what they write,
>>>>>then please show us you can do math.
>>>>>
>>>>>Please quote what is the theoretic number to search FULLWIDTH without
>>>>>hashtables OR killermoves and WITH singular extensions a treesize
>>>>>of 18 ply..
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>First, they don't claim to do "fullwidth" in the hardware.
>>>
>>>The 12.2 is software+hardware depth.
>>>It is very clear from their paper.
>>>
>>>see page 13 table 2
>>>
>>>iteration 12
>>>minimum software depth 8
>>>
>>>The explanation say that is it about the position before white's move
>>>in game 2 against kasparov.
>>>
>>>Uri
>>
>>
>>I don't begin to know how to interpret those numbers in light of the email
>>I have received from the DB group about the 12(6) issue.  IE do you assume
>
>We talk about an email around the year 2000 (in 1999 you still said
>12 ply) from a dude called Campbell , not the programmer of the thing
>Hsu. He probably referred to 'average' search depth. They have a big
>table later in the paper *average* search depth.


First, it wasn't from Murray, it was from Andrew, a different member of
the team.  You obviously don't know any of them so I won't go farther
there.  Second, if you recall the email, Andrew _specifically_ said he
talked to CB (Crazy Bird, AKA Hsu) to verify that it had not been changed
in meaning.

What more can I say?




>
>Suggesting that deep blue 2 which was only slightly faster than deep blue 1
>(no more than a factor 2) getting suddenly 6 plies extra is not possible.

I don't know what you mean.  I personally watched deep thought search 10-11
plies deep in the middlegame in 1989-1994 games at ACM and WCCC events.  I
_saw_ that.  Deep Though was credited with roughly 1-2M nodes per second
by Hsu and team.  DB was clearly a hundred times faster.  Which should
certainly produce 5 more plies at their 4.0 branching factor...

More than that is not worth arguing about.  You continually say what can't
be done, only changing your mind when _you_ can do it.  I personally don't
operate that way.  I prefer to try it...




>
>>that "minimum software depth" is the software depth they searched to without
>>extensions?  I don't know enough to guess there, since this doesn't seem to
>>quite square with the explanation they have sent me (and which I posted here
>>a few months back)...
>>
>>It is not clear who precisely wrote the paper, which would make interpreting
>>this a bit less clear.  Obviously Hsu has been gone for a couple of years,
>>so a bit of confusion could easily creep in.  Some of the data actually seems
>>to sound like deep blue 1, while the paper seems to imply that it is about
>>deep blue 2.  But the numbers suggest a bit of confusion there as well...



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