Author: Vincent Diepeveen
Date: 18:11:43 08/31/02
Go up one level in this thread
On August 31, 2002 at 04:00:57, Uri Blass wrote: >On August 31, 2002 at 03:26:01, Dave Gomboc wrote: > >>>This is exactly the case for Junior and Fritz and they simply do not care about >>>small improvement that they can get. >> >>That, I don't believe. >> >>>They know that there are positions when the program cannot see simple tactics >>>but they do not care to fix it. >>> >>>There are positions when Junior cannot see simple tactics and Amir ban knows >>>about it but he did not fix it at least not in Junior7(some years after he got >>>the information). >> >>That's probably because it would hurt the program overall. I'm sure he does >>what he thinks is best for overall program strength. > >I believe that the reason for Junior is that it is not >easy to fix it and be sure that you do not generate >other bugs but I do not think that it is impossible >to do it. > >I believe that in most cases >professional do not work harder than the amaturs. they will be happy with such statements... Most obviously won't be able to answer that because they don't like to work and prefer to stay on the beach instead :) >> >>>There are positions when Fritz cannot see simple mate because of null move >>>pruning. >> >>I'm sure Frans Morsch is well aware of that too. > >Yes but he does nothing to fix it and it does more mistakes than other programs >because of null move pruning. >I see no reason to use null move pruning after the first >move of the pv but this is exactly what Fritz does. > >I already posted the analysis when Fritz finds the right move Nc6 >that is winning(white is in zunzwang) but the score >drop every iteration because it does not want to analyze a move that threats >nothing. > >Here is the relevant position again > >[D]1n6/1P6/8/2P5/p3kp1p/6p1/1P4K1/4N3 b - - 0 1 >This position can happen in games > >Deep Fritz(black) played against Junior7(White). > >Junior7 already saw a score of 11.40 against itself when it played 54.c5 but >Deep fritz blundered because of pruning the line that it wanted to play. any fritz7 comments instead of only the completely outdated deepfritz? of course i tried fritz7 and it also fails miserably. Obviously you need to use nullmove first move after pv always when you don't use alphabeta, but MTD instead. >I remember from analyzing another study that >this kind of behaviour is in Fritz for years >(Fritz3,Fritz4,Fritz5) >and I wonder why Fritz insist to use null move in >the wrong way(I do not know about Deep Fritz7 and this analysis >is with the first Deep Fritz that came after fritz6) > >Here is the game it is taken from copied from Deep Fritz's >Gui(if you look in the line that is not the main line you can see >54.c5 and the horrible blunder that Deep Fritz did in the game). > >Luba kristol - Uri blass [B80] >[Blass,U] > > 32768kB, F5book.ctg. PentiumIII > 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 13.11-14.11 2...d6 15.11-15.11 3.d4 16.11-19.11 3...cxd4 4.Nxd4 >Nf6 white 4 days black 0 days 5.Nc3 22.11-23.11 5...a6 26.11-26.11 6.f3 >29.11-29.11 6...e6 1.12-3.12 7.Be3 5.12-7.12 7...b5 12.12-12.12 8.Qd2 >14.12-15.12 8...Nbd7 18.12-18.12 9.g4 21.12-26.12 9...h6 28.12-4.1 10.0-0-0 >8.1-10.1 10...Bb7 14.1-16.1 11.Bd3 17.1-18.1 11...Ne5 21.1-26.1 12.Rhe1 31.1-1.2 >12...b4 4.2-12.2 13.Nce2 d5 vacation-7.3 14.Ng3 9.3-18.3 14...dxe4 20.3-1.4 >15.Bxe4 Nxe4 15.4-16.4 16.Nxe4 17.4-18.4 16...Bxe4 22.4-23.4 17.fxe4 >25.4-28.4-1.5 17...Bc5 1.5-2.5 18.Qe2 4.5-8.5 18...Qb6 9.5-13.5 19.Kb1 15.5-17.5 >19...0-0 18,5-20.5 20.Rd2 22.5-23.5 20...a5 24.5-29.5 -0.63/17 1:47:34 >21.Red1 31.5-1.6 21...Rfd8 [21...Qa6 22.Qxa6 Rxa6 23.Nf5 Rc6 24.Bxc5 Rxc5 25.Ne3 >Kh7] 22.h4 Qa6 23.Qxa6 -0.42/18 14:59 Rxa6 -0.72/15 2:37 24.Nxe6 (Nb3) >-0.59/18 8:10 24...Rxd2 -1.06/17 7:35 25.Rxd2 -0.81/19 6:38 Rxe6 >-0.97/17 11:32 [25...Be7 26.Nc7 -0.53/19 12:51 Rf6 -0.72/16 8:00 27.Rf2 >-0.60/20 29:50 Rc6 -0.81/16 8:39 28.Nd5 -0.83/20 25:21 Bxh4 -0.78/16 >12:36 29.Rf5 (Re2) -0.86/20 26:27 29...Nxg4 -1.06/16 10:24 30.Bb6 >-0.89/20 21:14 a4 -1.22/16 20:40 31.Ba5 -0.90/20 29:44 Re6 -1.16/16 >16:06 32.Bxb4 -0.88/20 24:11 Rxe4 -1.16/16 18:54 33.a3 -0.92/20 8:56 >Be1 (Rd4) -1.13/15 10:55 34.Kc1 (c3) -0.71/19 7:53 34...g6 -1.13/16 >13:17 35.Rf1 -0.85/20 14:54 Bxb4 (Bh4) -1.03/16 9:33 36.axb4 -0.60/18 >4:04 f5 (Kg7) -1.03/16 12:07 37.b5 -0.62/20 5:49 Kf7 -1.13/16 11:28 >38.Rf4 (b6) -0.77/20 12:14 38...Rxf4 -1.34/17 6:18 39.Nxf4 -0.80/21 1:55 > Ne5 (Nf6) -1.41/19 7:12 40.b6 -1.01/23 6:13 Nc6 (Nd7) -1.47/19 11:28 >41.Kd2 (b7) -0.70/21 7:05 41...h5 (g5) -1.56/18 10:55 42.Nd3 -0.75/22 >10:53 Ke6 (h4) -1.63/17 8:29 43.Nf4+ (Nc5+) -0.78/22 10:37 43...Kf6 >-1.78/18 6:09 44.Ke1 (b7) -0.78/21 5:17 44...h4 -2.00/18 4:56 45.Kf2 >(Kf1) -0.89/22 6:56 45...g5 -2.03/18 5:06 46.Nd3 -1.03/21 7:01 f4 (Ke6) > -2.19/18 6:01 47.Kg1 (b7) -1.11/21 5:35 47...Kf5 -2.28/19 7:21 48.b7 >-1.46/22 4:53 Nb8 -2.44/18 4:32 49.Kf2 (c4) -1.83/23 3:23 49...g4 >-3.75/19 2:24 50.Kg2 -2.12/23 5:35 g3 -3.63/20 3:48 51.c3 -4.98/24 >6:47 Ke4 -4.25/20 1:27 52.Ne1 -5.28/23 11:05 Nd7 (Nc6) -1.94/20 14:33 >53.c4 -6.18/24 4:11 Nb8 -0.88/19 3:45 54.c5 -11.40/24 2:56 Ke3 (Nc6) >-0.88/17 3:53 (54...Nc6) 55.Nc2+ -0.68/20 1:02 Kd3 -1.09/19 5:10 56.c6 >-0.91/20 1:21 Nxc6 -0.81/18 9:24 57.Nb4+ -0.55/20 5:24 Ke2 (Ke3) >-0.56/18 7:20 58.Nxc6 -0.55/20 5:27 f3+ -0.53/16 4:51 59.Kh3 -0.55/21 >16:44 f2 -1.06/15 1:53 60.b8Q -0.56/19 2:43 f1Q+ -0.75/13 1:15 61.Kxh4 > -0.56/18 1:30 Qf6+ (Qh1+) 0.00/13 2:36 62.Kxg3 -0.56/18 6:05 Qf3+ >(Qxc6) -0.59/13 1:17 ] 26.Bxc5 -0.84/20 7:33 Nxg4 -1.00/16 5:24 27.Kc1 >(Rd8+) -0.89/20 34:55 27...Rxe4 -1.00/16 12:39 28.Rd4 (Bb6) -0.81/20 >43:54 28...Rxd4 (Nf6) -0.97/17 7:38 29.Bxd4 -0.88/22 5:23 h5 (f6) >-1.19/19 10:42 30.Kd1 -0.70/25 17:29 f6 -1.00/20 11:05 31.Bb6 -0.55/24 >8:18 a4 -1.09/20 11:52 32.Bc5 -0.55/25 18:40 g5 -0.97/20 12:24 33.hxg5 > -0.41/24 7:58 fxg5 -0.97/19 6:44 34.Ke2 -0.39/25 10:15 h4 (Kf7) >-1.03/19 10:14 35.Bxb4 -0.35/23 5:20 Kf7 -0.78/19 11:57 36.Bd2 (b3) >-0.26/23 10:07 36...Kg6 -0.97/18 6:31 37.b3 (b4) -0.26/24 10:31 37...h3 >-0.81/20 12:17 38.Kf1 -0.16/22 2:57 axb3 -0.91/17 18:09 39.cxb3 >-0.11/23 6:33 Ne5 (Kf5) -0.47/18 20:55 40.a4 0.00/23 6:19 Nf3 -0.94/19 >5:02 41.Ba5 0.00/24 5:51 g4 (Nd4) -0.16/20 11:29 42.Kf2 0.00/24 4:06 >Kf5 (Nd4) 0.12/21 9:13 43.Bc7 -0.06/23 1:36 Nd2 (Ke6) 0.00/21 5:05 >44.a5 0.01/25 6:19 Ne4+ 0.00/21 8:11 45.Kg1 -0.14/26 14:45 Nc5 0.00/22 > 5:19 46.Bd6 0.00/28 8:03 Na6 0.00/23 6:29 47.Bh2 (Kh2) 0.00/29 3:48 >47...Kf6 (Ke4) 0.00/23 4:26 48.Kf2 -0.14/26 5:35 Ke6 (Kf5) 0.00/23 5:07 >49.Kg3 0.00/29 4:15 Kd7 (Kd5) 0.00/25 3:51 50.Kxg4 0.00/31 5:21 Kc6 >0.00/26 5:12 Line > > >Uri
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