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Subject: Re: Book vs no book

Author: Miguel A. Ballicora

Date: 06:50:10 09/02/02

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On September 02, 2002 at 08:59:41, Uri Blass wrote:

>On September 02, 2002 at 08:49:58, José Carlos wrote:
>
>>On September 02, 2002 at 07:59:40, Sune Fischer wrote:
>>
>>>On September 02, 2002 at 06:25:00, José Carlos wrote:
>>>
>>>>On September 02, 2002 at 04:24:21, Sune Fischer wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On September 01, 2002 at 19:12:01, Andrew Williams wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Friday I got back from a business trip and saw the discussion going on about
>>>>>>the effect of the opening book. Too tired to think of anything else to test, I
>>>>>>started a match between postmodernist with its big book (made up of Dann
>>>>>>Corbit's games collection) versus postmodernist without a book. To encourage a
>>>>>>bit of randomness, I told both versions to randomly vary the time they used for
>>>>>>searching the first few moves out of book. I have no position at all on the
>>>>>>debate that was going on, but here is some more data anyway:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I played 200 games at 5 minutes + 2 seconds increment. Both sides played with no
>>>>>>pondering on the same Athlon 1200. There were no duplicates amongst the games
>>>>>>(according to Scid; I haven't checked by hand).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The final score from the point of view of the version with the book was:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>	+71 =78 -51
>>>>>>
>>>>>>With a final score of Withbook 110 - 90 Nobook.
>>>>>
>>>>>As you and others have demostrated the (good) books have a positive effect on
>>>>>the score, but is it because the books leaves them in a superior position, or
>>>>>simply because of the time they save playing directly from book?
>>>>>
>>>>>I'd expect you might also see a score close to 110-90 if you give one program 5
>>>>>min 2 sec inc and the other only 4 min 2 sec inc. It certain is a factor to be
>>>>>considered...
>>>>>
>>>>>-S.
>>>>>
>>>>>>Andrew
>>>>>>
>>>>>>PS Irrespective of the significance of the figures given here or elsewhere, I
>>>>>>won't participate in any tournament where an opening book is used without
>>>>>>explicit permission from its creator to use it in the tournament.
>>>>>
>>>>>PS
>>>>>No matter the effect of the book, it isn't the _engine_ playing....
>>>>
>>>>  According to _your_ definition of engine.
>>>
>>>From what I've heard there are GUIs with protocols that handle all the book
>>>moves and never even asks the engine for 'advice'.
>>>In this case the distinction is clear, it is not the _engine_ playing.
>>>
>>>It is the combination of hardware, engine and book that makes the package
>>>strong.
>>>
>>>-S.
>>>
>>>>  José C.
>>
>>  There're GUIs that resign, there're some that check legality of moves. Some
>>even offer draw! Oh, and some of them control the EGTBs. And some clear the hash
>>tables, or the learning tables, or...
>>  In summary, you can make any definition you want. In my case, my engine does
>>all of this itself. I define a GUI as a "graphical user interface". No more, no
>>less. An interface just and only takes care of communication. So my book code is
>>part of my engine.
>>  Your definition of engine is "everything but what a GUI can do". Well, then an
>>engine is nothing, because a GUI can search as well, why not.
>>
>>  José C.
>
>The point here is a practical point.
>programs can use book that the author is not responsible for if they run under
>Fritz7.
>The same is for tablebases.
>
>It is clear that if averno play under Fritz7 then not the averno engine decides
>about the moves in the opening.

Then, technically, it is not Averno playing, it is frankenstein version of a
programs that uses part of Averno and part of Fritz.

Miguel


>
>Uri



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