Author: Vincent Diepeveen
Date: 07:10:34 09/04/02
Go up one level in this thread
On September 03, 2002 at 17:03:16, Jeremiah Penery wrote: >On September 03, 2002 at 13:38:21, Matthew Hull wrote: > >>On September 03, 2002 at 13:07:54, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >> >>>On September 03, 2002 at 13:05:30, Matthew Hull wrote: >>> >>>It gives the reason why i took a closer statistical look >>>at his data. In order to find what his speed penalties were >>>for processors. Then the fraud he committed was easy to find >>>out. >>> >> >>Look man, if all you got is that 13.00000 to prove your point, it's a pretty >>thin thread to hang your argument on. It looks like you're really reaching. >> >>And don't worry that you can't duplicate the numbers with DIEP on some >>supercomputer. If it's not a Cray, you won't be able to anyway. >> >>But if you ever get a quad XEON with interleaved memory, and still can't get to >>1.7, then at least you're getting closer to a real argument. > >Perhaps you missed some of the threads from a while back (a year or so). >Vincent has claimed to get >2.0 speedup on 2 processors before. I'm not sure >why suddenly he changes this to 1.6 or whatever now. Seems to me he makes up >whatever numbers he wants to 'prove' his points, because obviously whatever he >says becomes a proof. There are 2 'deep' diep versions a) diep version 1999-2002 (juli) b) diep optimized for NUMA In both categories there is a substantial difference in speedup between several versions: a1) with dangerous extensions a2) without dangerous extensions a3) without dangerous extensions and with forward pruning a3 always has a > 2.0 speedup for simplistic reasons that it is doing a dubious search. It is this version which had also a 4.0 speedup in 1999 and which searched 20 ply in endgame in 1999 at 4 processors. After that i have again experimented with forward pruning bigtime over the years, but the version a2 is very close to a 2.0 speedup. If you look to node counts of crafty you will see it also needs less nodes than a single cpu search. Bob denies it, but never shows node counts. What Bob needs to do is both proof 1.7 speedup and at the same time show the node counts for every ply at every depth while claiming that 1.7 speedup. Bob did do this for Cray Blitz obviously. However Cray Blitz used hardly nullmove, so the chance that a branch gives a major cutoff in little nodes is a lot less likely, whereas bob himself sees for crafty today already a 2 ply increase using nullmove (i feel it is on average a LOT more than 2 ply though for DIEP, because if i search with all extensions turned on fullwidth i hardly get above 9 ply and only after billions of nodes i get to 10 ply; only without dangerous extensions fullwidth a ply or 10 is possible). I will not comment too long on the 2 ply estimate for crafty, but let's do a simple run here at bob's favourite position (so the one where he has a good speedup), without knowing now what the speedup is and let it run for 30 minutes exactly: 2r2rk1/1bqnbpp1/1p1ppn1p/pP6/N1P1P3/P2B1N1P/1B2QPP1/R2R2K1 b b7e4 moves: solution ; singlemove Bxe4!! name : Bratko-Kopec.22 EPD Kit revision date: 1996.04.21 unable to open book file [./book.bin]. book is disabled unable to open book file [./books.bin]. hash table memory = 384M bytes. pawn hash table memory = 6M bytes. pondering disabled. noise level set to 1. Crafty v18.15 (1 cpus) White(1): ponder off pondering disabled. White(1): mt 2 max threads set to 2 White(1): setboard 2r2rk1/1bqnbpp1/1p1ppn1p/pP6/N1P1P3/P2B1N1P/1B2QPP1/R2R2K1 b - - Black(1): d +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 8 | | | *R| | | *R| *K| | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 7 | | *B| *Q| *N| *B| *P| *P| | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 6 | | *P| | *P| *P| *N| | *P| +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 5 | *P| P | | | | | | | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 4 | N | | P | | P | | | | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 3 | P | | | B | | N | | P | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 2 | | B | | | Q | P | P | | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 1 | R | | | R | | | K | | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ a b c d e f g h Black(1): Black(1): analyze Analyze Mode: type "exit" to terminate. clearing hash tables time surplus 0.00 time limit 30.00 (3:30) nss depth time score variation (1) starting thread 1 647 1 0.03 0.14 1. ... Rfd8 726 1-> 0.11 0.14 1. ... Rfd8 808 2 0.14 0.24 1. ... Rfd8 2. Bd4 254 2 0.19 0.20 1. ... Nc5 2. Nxc5 Qxc5 264 2 0.22 0.16 1. ... Ne5 2. Nxe5 dxe5 1393 2-> 0.28 0.16 1. ... Ne5 2. Nxe5 dxe5 1772 3 0.31 0.35 1. ... Ne5 2. Nxe5 dxe5 3. Qf3 667 3 0.34 0.15 1. ... Rfd8 2. Bd4 Nc5 5186 3-> 0.41 0.15 1. ... Rfd8 2. Bd4 Nc5 7001 4 0.44 0.14 1. ... Rfd8 2. Bd4 Nc5 3. Nxc5 dxc5 8945 4-> 0.50 0.14 1. ... Rfd8 2. Bd4 Nc5 3. Nxc5 dxc5 13438 5 0.53 0.25 1. ... Rfd8 2. Bd4 Nc5 3. Nxc5 dxc5 4. Be5 13130 5 0.64 0.19 1. ... Rfe8 2. Bd4 Red8 3. Rac1 Nc5 14561 5 0.67 0.18 1. ... Nh5 2. Qe3 Bf6 3. Bxf6 Nhxf6 4. Qf4 54388 5-> 0.78 0.18 1. ... Nh5 2. Qe3 Bf6 3. Bxf6 Nhxf6 4. Qf4 83921 6 0.89 0.16 1. ... Nh5 2. Qe3 Bf6 3. Bxf6 Nhxf6 4. Qf4 Rfd8 6 1.03 ++ 1. ... Bxe4!! 193346 6 1.09 -0.69 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Rxe4 5. Nxd7 Nxd7 193346 6-> 1.16 -0.69 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Rxe4 5. Nxd7 Nxd7 245644 7 1.28 -0.69 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Rxe4 5. Nxd7 Nxd7 265658 7-> 1.39 -0.69 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Rxe4 5. Nxd7 Nxd7 395031 8 1.55 -0.55 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Nxb6 5. Bd3 Rc5 459422 8-> 1.67 -0.55 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Nxb6 5. Bd3 Rc5 899258 9 2.09 -0.70 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Rxe4 5. Nxd7 Nxd7 6. Bc3 a4 984089 9-> 2.24 -0.70 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Rxe4 5. Nxd7 Nxd7 6. Bc3 a4 1541842 10 2.74 -0.44 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Nxb6 5. Bd3 Rc7 6. Bd4 Nfd7 1966413 10-> 3.17 -0.44 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Nxb6 5. Bd3 Rc7 6. Bd4 Nfd7 3933293 11 4.78 -0.69 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Rxe4 5. Nxd7 Nxd7 6. Bd4 Re2 7. b6 Rd8 4483252 11-> 5.38 -0.69 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Rxe4 5. Nxd7 Nxd7 6. Bd4 Re2 7. b6 Rd8 8338607 12 8.39 -0.48 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Nxb6 5. Bd3 Rcc8 6. Bd4 Nfd5 7. Rac1 Rfd8 8. Rxc8 Rxc8 16973942 12-> 15.38 -0.48 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Nxb6 5. Bd3 Rcc8 6. Bd4 Nfd5 7. Rac1 Rfd8 8. Rxc8 Rxc8 27883394 13 23.56 -0.63 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Rxe4 5. Nxd7 Nxd7 6. Bd4 Rb8 7. Rac1 Rxb5 8. Rc7 e5 9. Rxd7 exd4 10. Nxd4 35691370 13-> 29.91 -0.63 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Rxe4 5. Nxd7 Nxd7 6. Bd4 Rb8 7. Rac1 Rxb5 8. Rc7 e5 9. Rxd7 exd4 10. Nxd4 60295418 14 48.61 -0.40 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Rxe4 5. Bxf6 Nxf6 6. Rdc1 Rd8 7. Nc8 Nd5 8. b6 Re2 9. b7 136243127 14-> 1:48 -0.40 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Rxe4 5. Bxf6 Nxf6 6. Rdc1 Rd8 7. Nc8 Nd5 8. b6 Re2 9. b7 216294742 15 2:47 -0.51 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Rxe4 5. Bxf6 Nxf6 6. Rdc1 Rd8 7. Nc8 Bf8 8. b6 Re2 9. b7 Rb2 252416426 15-> 3:16 -0.51 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Rxe4 5. Bxf6 Nxf6 6. Rdc1 Rd8 7. Nc8 Bf8 8. b6 Re2 9. b7 Rb2 444862591 16 5:39 -0.46 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Nxb6 5. Bd3 Rc7 6. Rac1 Rfc8 7. Nd4 Rxc1 8. Bxc1 Nfd5 9. Nc6 a4 10. Bd2 520351692 16-> 6:38 -0.46 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Nxb6 5. Bd3 Rc7 6. Rac1 Rfc8 7. Nd4 Rxc1 8. Bxc1 Nfd5 9. Nc6 a4 10. Bd2 865441917 17 10:50 -0.50 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Nxb6 5. Bd3 Rc7 6. Rac1 Rfc8 7. Nd4 Nfd5 8. Rxc7 Rxc7 9. Nc6 a4 10. Rc1 f5 1063268606 17-> 13:24 -0.50 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Nxb6 5. Bd3 Rc7 6. Rac1 Rfc8 7. Nd4 Nfd5 8. Rxc7 Rxc7 9. Nc6 a4 10. Rc1 f5 1994721592 18 24:44 -0.57 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Nxb6 5. Bd3 Rc7 6. Rac1 Rfc8 7. Nd4 Nfd5 8. Rc6 Bf6 9. Rdc1 Bg5 10. Rxc7 Rxc7 11. Rc6 quit 18 31:00 26/33? 1. ... e5 Black(0): quit execution complete. D:\CHESS\crafty> Now the same version without nullmove: unable to open book file [./books.bin]. hash table memory = 384M bytes. pawn hash table memory = 6M bytes. pondering disabled. noise level set to 1. Crafty v18.15 (1 cpus) White(1): mt 2 max threads set to 2 White(1): ponder off pondering disabled. White(1): setboard 2r2rk1/1bqnbpp1/1p1ppn1p/pP6/N1P1P3/P2B1N1P/1B2QPP1/R2R2K1 b Black(1): - - Illegal move: - Black(1): d +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 8 | | | *R| | | *R| *K| | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 7 | | *B| *Q| *N| *B| *P| *P| | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 6 | | *P| | *P| *P| *N| | *P| +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 5 | *P| P | | | | | | | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 4 | N | | P | | P | | | | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 3 | P | | | B | | N | | P | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 2 | | B | | | Q | P | P | | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 1 | R | | | R | | | K | | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ a b c d e f g h Black(1): analyze Analyze Mode: type "exit" to terminate. clearing hash tables time surplus 0.00 time limit 30.00 (3:30) nss depth time score variation (1) starting thread 1 647 1 0.05 0.14 1. ... Rfd8 726 1-> 0.10 0.14 1. ... Rfd8 807 2 0.14 0.24 1. ... Rfd8 2. Bd4 251 2 0.19 0.20 1. ... Nc5 2. Nxc5 Qxc5 261 2 0.22 0.16 1. ... Ne5 2. Nxe5 dxe5 1420 2-> 0.28 0.16 1. ... Ne5 2. Nxe5 dxe5 2146 3 0.32 0.35 1. ... Ne5 2. Nxe5 dxe5 3. Qf3 650 3 0.36 0.27 1. ... Nc5 2. Nxc5 Qxc5 3. Bd4 724 3 0.39 0.15 1. ... Rfd8 2. Bd4 Nc5 1759 3 0.46 0.14 1. ... Nh5 2. Bd4 Nf4 6808 3-> 0.49 0.14 1. ... Nh5 2. Bd4 Nf4 11023 4 0.53 0.16 1. ... Nh5 2. Qe3 Bf6 3. Nc3 7139 4 0.58 0.14 1. ... Rcd8 2. Bd4 Nc5 3. Nxc5 dxc5 33165 4-> 0.64 0.14 1. ... Rcd8 2. Bd4 Nc5 3. Nxc5 dxc5 52659 5 0.69 0.26 1. ... Rcd8 2. Qe3 Nh5 3. Bd4 Nc5 93240 5 0.77 0.22 1. ... Rfd8 2. Bd4 Nh5 3. Ng5 Ng3 115407 5 0.82 0.18 1. ... Nh5 2. Qe3 Bf6 3. Bxf6 Nhxf6 4. Qf4 163744 5-> 0.94 0.18 1. ... Nh5 2. Qe3 Bf6 3. Bxf6 Nhxf6 4. Qf4 229131 6 1.07 0.13 1. ... Nh5 2. Qe3 e5 3. g3 Bf6 4. Bc3 6 1.36 ++ 1. ... Bxe4!! 617961 6 1.42 -0.69 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Rxe4 5. Nxd7 Nxd7 617961 6-> 1.50 -0.69 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Rxe4 5. Nxd7 Nxd7 854974 7 1.75 -0.69 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Rxe4 5. Nxd7 Nxd7 1965002 7-> 2.61 -0.69 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Rxe4 5. Nxd7 Nxd7 3204789 8 3.47 -0.55 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Nxb6 5. Bd3 Rc5 8558951 8-> 7.49 -0.55 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Nxb6 5. Bd3 Rc5 13537850 9 11.02 -0.70 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Rxe4 5. Nxd7 Nxd7 6. Bc3 a4 39041323 9-> 30.74 -0.70 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Rxe4 5. Nxd7 Nxd7 6. Bc3 a4 62109822 10 45.92 -0.44 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Nxb6 5. Bd3 Rc7 6. Bd4 Nfd7 179739712 10-> 2:14 -0.44 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Nxb6 5. Bd3 Rc7 6. Bd4 Nfd7 269928019 11 3:18 -0.69 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Rxe4 5. Nxd7 Nxd7 6. Bd4 Rd8 7. b6 Re2 793449429 11-> 9:37 -0.69 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Rxe4 5. Nxd7 Nxd7 6. Bd4 Rd8 7. b6 Re2 1203681300 12 14:15 -0.44 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Nxb6 5. Bd3 Rcc8 6. Nd4 Rfe8 7. Nc6 a4 3625442403 12-> 44:17 -0.44 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Nxb6 5. Bd3 Rcc8 6. Nd4 Rfe8 7. Nc6 a4 5277808477 13 63:23 -0.63 1. ... Bxe4 2. Bxe4 Qxc4 3. Qxc4 Rxc4 4. Nxb6 Rxe4 5. Nxd7 Nxd7 6. Bd4 Rb8 7. Rac1 Rxb5 8. Rc7 e5 9. Rxd7 exd4 10. Nxd4 We see that a search of 15 seconds with nullmove takes 44 minutes without. At tournament time controls the difference is already 3 ply. After that difference is 5 ply, obviously caused by the better branching factor.
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