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Subject: Re: I can't believe this bashing is being allowed on here: "Bad Math To

Author: Rolf Tueschen

Date: 13:55:56 09/05/02

Go up one level in this thread


On September 05, 2002 at 16:46:03, Miguel A. Ballicora wrote:

>On September 05, 2002 at 13:43:10, Matthew Hull wrote:
>
>>On September 05, 2002 at 13:28:20, Miguel A. Ballicora wrote:
>>
>>>On September 05, 2002 at 10:05:05, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>
>>>>On September 05, 2002 at 00:25:58, Miguel A. Ballicora wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On September 04, 2002 at 18:38:17, Dann Corbit wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>My take on the matter (in one paragraph):
>>>>>>Robert wrote a paper on parallel speedup, showing a 1.7 increase for 2 CPU's (as
>>>>>>derived from his more general formula).  Vincent was unable to reproduce this
>>>>>>sort of speedup, and thought the research was faulty.  Robert agreed that the
>>>>>>test set was limited and you won't always get that sort of speedup, but as an
>>>>>>average (over a broad set of positions) that's about what he got.  There has
>>>>>>been some acrimony over whether superlinear speedups are possible.  I think that
>>>>>>the jury is still out on that one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>At any rate, that's my take on the whole thing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Vincent always sees things in pure, jet black or gleaming, powder white.  If
>>>>>>something isn't terrific, then it is pure junk.  While I think his mode of
>>>>>>interesting is a bit odd, it's one of the things that make Vincent interesting.
>>>>>
>>>>>He crossed the line when he used the word "fraud" and "lie"
>>>>>to describe a scientific paper without any solid proof (he only proved a flaw in
>>>>>the presentation). Too serious.
>>>>>
>>>>>To be honest, I am embarrassed to be reading this thread. One side does not
>>>>>recognize a flaw (it could be honest and I believe it, happens many times, big
>>>>>deal) and the other makes pathetic accusations of fraud mixing it up with old
>>>>>issues (Deep blue etc.). To top it all, ad hominem attacks.
>>>>>
>>>>>In this conditions it is impossible to discuss anything.
>>>>
>>>>While I understand what you mean, I don't see any major "flaw".
>>>
>>>No, it is not major, it is a very minor flaw in the presentation. Not a big
>>>deal, but you cannot stand there and say that it is just ok. You cannot say that
>>>it is ok the way you rounded it and everything is justified by the big
>>>variability. The only thing that the big variability shows is that the flaw is
>>>minor, but it does not show that there is no flaw in the presentation. In those
>>>cases standard deviations should be shown using numbers that were rounded
>>>properly.
>>>
>>>Don't get me wrong, I understand and accept completely everything you say, if I
>>>were accused of fraud I would go overboard myself. But please, do not try to
>>>convince us that those tables are the proper way to present something.
>>
>>Under the circumstances, I don't think he had a choice.  It was the only way to
>>add the data so long after the fact at the request of the referees.  Was he
>>supposed to say in the paper that the refs wanted the data so I was forced to
>>extrapolate it?  What would you have done in that situation?
>
>What I would or I would not is irrelevant. We are humans and make mistakes.
>Reviewers are human too. The point is that 10 years later I do not think I will
>try to convince myself and everybody that everything is pretty.
>
>Anyway, rounding the way it was done was not required by the reviewers.
>Methodology has to be explained thoroughly, if data was extrapolated, it should
>be explained with details, how and why.
>Reviewers should have requested standard deviations and not the ridiculous table
>with the nodes. Reviewers many times ask things that are not really important
>and you just obey to finish the process as soon as possible. Sometimes you can
>fight it and they listen.
>
>Regards,
>Miguel

Just to make a quick point. What if the referee or Journal editor was someone as
experienced as Jaap van der Heringk? Same argument as before?
Just pure speculation: What, if the idea of the rounding came from someone else
but not Bob. Just kidding. Or?

Rolf Tueschen



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