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Subject: Re: I can't believe this bashing is being allowed on here: "Bad Math To

Author: Uri Blass

Date: 14:36:20 09/05/02

Go up one level in this thread


On September 05, 2002 at 17:09:44, Matthew Hull wrote:

>On September 05, 2002 at 16:43:16, martin fierz wrote:
>
>>On September 05, 2002 at 13:43:10, Matthew Hull wrote:
>>
>>>On September 05, 2002 at 13:28:20, Miguel A. Ballicora wrote:
>>>
>>>>On September 05, 2002 at 10:05:05, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On September 05, 2002 at 00:25:58, Miguel A. Ballicora wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On September 04, 2002 at 18:38:17, Dann Corbit wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>My take on the matter (in one paragraph):
>>>>>>>Robert wrote a paper on parallel speedup, showing a 1.7 increase for 2 CPU's (as
>>>>>>>derived from his more general formula).  Vincent was unable to reproduce this
>>>>>>>sort of speedup, and thought the research was faulty.  Robert agreed that the
>>>>>>>test set was limited and you won't always get that sort of speedup, but as an
>>>>>>>average (over a broad set of positions) that's about what he got.  There has
>>>>>>>been some acrimony over whether superlinear speedups are possible.  I think that
>>>>>>>the jury is still out on that one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>At any rate, that's my take on the whole thing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Vincent always sees things in pure, jet black or gleaming, powder white.  If
>>>>>>>something isn't terrific, then it is pure junk.  While I think his mode of
>>>>>>>interesting is a bit odd, it's one of the things that make Vincent interesting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>He crossed the line when he used the word "fraud" and "lie"
>>>>>>to describe a scientific paper without any solid proof (he only proved a flaw in
>>>>>>the presentation). Too serious.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>To be honest, I am embarrassed to be reading this thread. One side does not
>>>>>>recognize a flaw (it could be honest and I believe it, happens many times, big
>>>>>>deal) and the other makes pathetic accusations of fraud mixing it up with old
>>>>>>issues (Deep blue etc.). To top it all, ad hominem attacks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In this conditions it is impossible to discuss anything.
>>>>>
>>>>>While I understand what you mean, I don't see any major "flaw".
>>>>
>>>>No, it is not major, it is a very minor flaw in the presentation. Not a big
>>>>deal, but you cannot stand there and say that it is just ok. You cannot say that
>>>>it is ok the way you rounded it and everything is justified by the big
>>>>variability. The only thing that the big variability shows is that the flaw is
>>>>minor, but it does not show that there is no flaw in the presentation. In those
>>>>cases standard deviations should be shown using numbers that were rounded
>>>>properly.
>>>>
>>>>Don't get me wrong, I understand and accept completely everything you say, if I
>>>>were accused of fraud I would go overboard myself. But please, do not try to
>>>>convince us that those tables are the proper way to present something.
>>>
>>>Under the circumstances, I don't think he had a choice.  It was the only way to
>>>add the data so long after the fact at the request of the referees.  Was he
>>>supposed to say in the paper that the refs wanted the data so I was forced to
>>>extrapolate it?  What would you have done in that situation?
>>
>>of course he had a choice! when a referee asks you for something more than what
>>you have in your paper, you can either comply, and produce that data, or you can
>>try to convince him that it's not important. even if you fail to convince the
>>referee, the editor of the journal has the last word about publication, and if
>>your paper is really good (it is), then you can also survive a hostile referee.
>>bob should either have rerun his tests and saved his logs to produce real data,
>>or he should have convinced the referee that this data is unnecessary (it is!),
>>and if that failed, he should have admitted to the journal editor that he did
>>not have the raw data any more, and asked him to publish it all the same.
>>making up data (to please a referee or for other reasons) and passing it on as
>>actual data is probably the biggest no-no of all in science.
>
>"Making up data" is too strong here.  The times and nodes are functions of the
>speedup.  Deriving them from this function is not "making up" data, it's
>calculating the data from a known function.

It is the case if you really calculate the exact numbers but in this case
an estimate for the time was calculated.

If you have a function that give you the exact data that is missing there is no
problem but unfortunately it was not the case here.

Uri



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