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Subject: Re: NN not always weaker then BB

Author: Uri Blass

Date: 13:27:08 09/06/02

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On September 06, 2002 at 15:50:25, Robert Hyatt wrote:

>On September 06, 2002 at 15:15:29, Uri Blass wrote:
>
>>On September 06, 2002 at 12:14:00, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>>On September 06, 2002 at 10:56:54, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>
>>>>On September 06, 2002 at 07:23:15, Yuriy Lyapko wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Which chess engine will see that Rb1 is winning in this position?
>>>>>
>>>>>[D] b4bk1/p2p4/p1p1p2p/P1P1Pp1P/3P3p/2N4N/1r3PP1/4R1K1 w - -
>>>>>
>>>>>Best regards,
>>>>>George
>>>>
>>>>Movei0076 can see a small advantage for white with Rb1(p850,32 Mbytes hash)
>>>>in less than 10 minutes.
>>>>
>>>>I imagine that stronger engines can find it faster.
>>>>
>>>>scores at the last iterations(from white point of view):
>>>
>>>
>>>I don't make any claims about being "stronger" or "weaker" than much of
>>>anything, but Rb1 is the _only_ move Crafty considers.
>>>
>>>It isn't going to like white's position, of course, until it sees white
>>>winning material, which suggests that the bishop scoring needs more control
>>>on the lack of mobility in this position.
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>The score starts out at -1.0 (good for black) and drops to about -.5 quickly.
>>>
>>>Which is totally wrong.
>>
>>Movei does not consider pair of bishops in it's evaluation.
>>
>>If we look at pawns and pawn structure then the score is about 0.4 pawns for
>>black based on Movei's evaluation(black has one pawn more but movei reduce 0.3
>>pawns for every case that there are 2 pawns in the same file).
>>
>>Movei evaluates usually bishop as slightly more than knight but
>>in this position it is not the case because the knights have better squares
>>
>>Movei gives white a small positional advantage because of better mobility except
>>the root position when the black rook is more active than the white rook.
>>
>>I guess that this is the reason for the scores that are close to 0.00 score.
>>
>>At big depth movei can see advntage for white that is increasing
>>Here is movei's output for depth 18-21
>>
>>Depth 18 0.36 for white
>>Depth 19 0.45 for white
>>depth 20 0.47 for white
>>depth 21 0.54 for white
>>
>>debug file(the negative number of nodes is not a problem that
>>is important for me today)
>
>Hey!...
>
>weren't you one of the ones urging me to go to the 64 bit node counter
>in crafty, for longer analysis?
>
>Get that node counter fixed...  :)

I remember that I said that I prefered Deep Fritz for deep search because of
having correct number of nodes.
I also know that the history table may be wrong if I search many nodes but
I read that history table is not very important when I use hash tables and
killers and some even say that it is counter productive.

I guess that I will fix the number of nodes in the future but today it is not in
the top of my priorities.

Uri



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