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Subject: Re: NN not always weaker then BB

Author: Dave Gomboc

Date: 14:55:20 09/06/02

Go up one level in this thread


On September 06, 2002 at 16:27:08, Uri Blass wrote:

>On September 06, 2002 at 15:50:25, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On September 06, 2002 at 15:15:29, Uri Blass wrote:
>>
>>>On September 06, 2002 at 12:14:00, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>
>>>>On September 06, 2002 at 10:56:54, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On September 06, 2002 at 07:23:15, Yuriy Lyapko wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Which chess engine will see that Rb1 is winning in this position?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>[D] b4bk1/p2p4/p1p1p2p/P1P1Pp1P/3P3p/2N4N/1r3PP1/4R1K1 w - -
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Best regards,
>>>>>>George
>>>>>
>>>>>Movei0076 can see a small advantage for white with Rb1(p850,32 Mbytes hash)
>>>>>in less than 10 minutes.
>>>>>
>>>>>I imagine that stronger engines can find it faster.
>>>>>
>>>>>scores at the last iterations(from white point of view):
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I don't make any claims about being "stronger" or "weaker" than much of
>>>>anything, but Rb1 is the _only_ move Crafty considers.
>>>>
>>>>It isn't going to like white's position, of course, until it sees white
>>>>winning material, which suggests that the bishop scoring needs more control
>>>>on the lack of mobility in this position.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The score starts out at -1.0 (good for black) and drops to about -.5 quickly.
>>>>
>>>>Which is totally wrong.
>>>
>>>Movei does not consider pair of bishops in it's evaluation.
>>>
>>>If we look at pawns and pawn structure then the score is about 0.4 pawns for
>>>black based on Movei's evaluation(black has one pawn more but movei reduce 0.3
>>>pawns for every case that there are 2 pawns in the same file).
>>>
>>>Movei evaluates usually bishop as slightly more than knight but
>>>in this position it is not the case because the knights have better squares
>>>
>>>Movei gives white a small positional advantage because of better mobility except
>>>the root position when the black rook is more active than the white rook.
>>>
>>>I guess that this is the reason for the scores that are close to 0.00 score.
>>>
>>>At big depth movei can see advntage for white that is increasing
>>>Here is movei's output for depth 18-21
>>>
>>>Depth 18 0.36 for white
>>>Depth 19 0.45 for white
>>>depth 20 0.47 for white
>>>depth 21 0.54 for white
>>>
>>>debug file(the negative number of nodes is not a problem that
>>>is important for me today)
>>
>>Hey!...
>>
>>weren't you one of the ones urging me to go to the 64 bit node counter
>>in crafty, for longer analysis?
>>
>>Get that node counter fixed...  :)
>
>I remember that I said that I prefered Deep Fritz for deep search because of
>having correct number of nodes.
>I also know that the history table may be wrong if I search many nodes but
>I read that history table is not very important when I use hash tables and
>killers and some even say that it is counter productive.
>
>I guess that I will fix the number of nodes in the future but today it is not in
>the top of my priorities.
>
>Uri

But since it should take you about three seconds to fix, why don't you go ahead
and fix it?

Dave



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