Author: Uri Blass
Date: 17:14:52 09/06/02
Go up one level in this thread
On September 06, 2002 at 19:53:52, martin fierz wrote: >On September 06, 2002 at 19:18:20, Matthew Hull wrote: > >>On September 06, 2002 at 18:04:29, Uri Blass wrote: >> >>>On September 06, 2002 at 18:01:11, Uri Blass wrote: >>> >>>>On September 06, 2002 at 17:32:47, Matthew Hull wrote: >>>> >>>>>On September 06, 2002 at 16:13:40, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On September 06, 2002 at 16:04:58, ALI MIRAFZALI wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>From the Threads here I am assuming that professor Hyatt beleives that 100X >>>>>>>factor in speed (NPS) would be too much to overcome with software improvement >>>>>>>factor.I am proposing the following possible match:Time control 40/2 6 >>>>>>>games : GNU chess 5.04 on a pentium 4 at 2.4 Gigahertz vs Chessmaster2 original >>>>>>>playstation (33 Mhz).This is actually a 73 factor in terms of processor speed >>>>>>>which is not 100 but close.On the original playstation Chessmaster2 gets about >>>>>>>1100 Nps. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Why gnuchess? I don't know much about it, and it might be perfectly ok. >>>>>> >>>>>>But you are also misinterpreting what I said. I did say that a factor of >>>>>>100x, between programs that are "close" is overwhelming. Obviously a bad >>>>>>program at 100X will be better, but it might not be much better. >>>>>> >>>>>>In any case, give your test a go and see what happens first... >>>>> >>>>>I'm running a test now with gnuchess (900mhz Duron) versus Crafty18.15 (90mhz >>>>>Pentium). Gnuchess runs 16x faster on the Duron than the P90. At 40/30min >>>>>minutes and after 36 games, gnuchess is 52% against crafty (not too impressive >>>>>for gnuchess). The lower the time control, the better gnuchess does, of course. >>>>> I have lots more data at home on this test, as well as an equal hardware test. >>>>>I'm trying to get at least 40 games in each category, including 40/120. >>>>> >>>>>Not sure if the test will prove useful, but I'm thinking that one can do this >>>>>experiment with any two engines and derive a function with which to calculate >>>>>the speed advantage needed to reach parity/superiority by the weaker engine, >>>>>qualitative factors aside. >>>> >>>>Thanks for your tests. >>>> >>>>I am interested to know how much games gnuchess lost on time because based on my >>>>experience gnuchess lose minority of it's games on time at x minute/y moves. >>>> >>>>It may be more interesting to use fisher time control because I believe that gnu >>>>chess does not lose on time at fisher time control. >>>> >>>>I still expect gnu chess to lose at slow time control inspite of the hardware >>>>advantage even at fisher time control like 150 minute per game+25 second per >>>>move but it is only a guess. >>>> >>>>I suggest that you use 6+1,30+5,150+25 as your 3 categories of time control. >>>> >>>>Uri >>> >>>Note that my experience is based only on games with no pondering and it is >>>possible that things are different with pondering(I do not know). >>> >>>Uri >> >> >>Pondering does not help the time problem. >> >>Also, weaker chess programs will perform better at shorter time controls, and >>worse at slow time controls.:-) >> >>Gnuchess results so far with a 16x speed advantage over Crafty on p90: >> >>40/5 71% >>40/10 53% >>40/30 50% >> >>Of course, if Crafty were on the 900mhz and gnuchess were given a 16x time >>advantage, the numbers would be lower. The speed advantage buys you less at the >>greater depths I think. > >that's interesting! wasn't berliner's hitech/lotech experiment trying to find >exactly this behavior, but it failed? No There was no proof for diminishing returns but this experiment is different. > i made a similar experiment with my >checkers program, but the "dumb" version of cake with a deeper search >consistently beat the "intelligent version" with a shallower search over a wide >range of search depths. One of the reasons that weaker programs are weaker is that they use inferior search rules. I believe that gnuchess use inferior search rules relative to crafty. In your experiment the dumb version had no inferior search rules. Uri
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