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Subject: Re: Blunder move because of bad time management

Author: Uri Blass

Date: 10:06:48 09/28/02

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On September 28, 2002 at 12:56:16, Sune Fischer wrote:

>On September 28, 2002 at 12:20:00, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On September 28, 2002 at 11:38:19, Sune Fischer wrote:
>>
>>>Carlos Pagador just sent me a game where frenzee made a clear blunder move.
>>>
>>>It wasn't a bug in the search, but in the time management.
>>>What happened was that the pv move failed-low at the root (I think that's what
>>>it's called?), it was a mate in 3 so it had to be avoided.
>>>
>>>The searched continued and the second move searched happened to be a very bad
>>>queen "sacrifice"!
>>>
>>>Unfortunately time was up before it could search the third move, so it played
>>>this losing queen move.
>>>
>>>It could have been worse actually, if it hadn't searched the second move either
>>>it would have gone straight into the mate, not suspecting the move was bad at
>>>all.
>>>
>>>I wonder how many buggy moves are made because of these fail-lows, I never
>>>thought about this at all, but of course the actual move being returned could be
>>>almost random when this happens. I reckon this is common knowledge, I just don't
>>>remember having seen it explained anywhere?
>>
>>
>>It is easy to fix.  If you fail low on the _first_ root move, then re-search
>>it right then to get a score.  Now you know how bad things are and how much
>>time you are willing to invest in order to find a better move...
>
>Okay, chess lingo question: how can I fail low on the first root move, the alpha
>value is -inf?

Not for me and I think that not for most of the programs.

>I don't do aspiration search or anything at the first move, should I?
>
>I do search the best move from the previous depth first, the rest are not sorted
>in any way.

Another mistake
The rest should be sorted.

If I understand correctly good capture can be the last move if the rest are not
sorted in any way.

I doubt if you really mean it and I guess that at least that you search captures
before no captures also in the first ply.

>All I know is that the second move should never be better than the first, that
>would be a sign something is wrong.

The second move is often better than the first because programs often change
their mind.

>I guess I can call it a fail low for the
>first move (relative to the second move).
>
>-S.

I do not understand what do you call fail low.
I call fail low only cases when I find that the first move is bad and I do not
know exactly how bad.

Cases when the program change it's mind can be described as fail high
because I do not know the exact score when I search with window of 1.

There are cases when the research does not verify the fail high and in these
cases it is a wrong fail high and the program does not change it's mind.

Uri



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