Author: Uri Blass
Date: 06:09:21 10/10/02
Go up one level in this thread
On October 10, 2002 at 06:51:47, Alessandro Damiani wrote: >On October 10, 2002 at 02:01:51, Uri Blass wrote: > >>On October 09, 2002 at 23:06:48, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>> >>> >>>I had to stop the experiment sooner than I wanted, but I did find some >>>interesting things out. >>> >>>1. at _very_ fast time controls (40 moves in 1 minute) null-move completely >>>destroys non-null-move >>>by a ridiculous margin. (this ended something like 60 wins, 5 losses, 8 draws) >>> >>>2. At longer time controls (40 moves in 10 minutes) non-null-move catches up >>>somewhat. It still loses >>>far more than it wins, but not _nearly_ so bad as test 1. (this was closer, but >>>with fewer games played) >> >>It seems based on your data that null move is more important for blitz and not >>for long time control. >> >>Interesting to know also the difference in plies >> >>If I compare depth after 3 minutes of search then I see for deep Fritz 3-5 plies >>difference at 3 minutes per move between selectivity 0 and the default value 2. >> > >By using a program with unknown source code you cannot be sure that >selectivity=2 is only related to null-move. > >Alessandro Ok I tested movei(R=3) against Movei(R=0) in the same positions and I get after 10 minutes of search in every position depthes 12,15 with null move against depthes 10,11 without null move. Difference of 2-4 plies that may be even bigger if I use null move in a more efficient way. Here is the debug file copied from winboard. Debug with null move: 66856 <first : 1 193 2 79 f1a6 c8b8 66876 <first : 2 67 2 310 f1a6 c8b8 f2g1 66876 <first : 2 67 2 682 f1a6 c8b8 f2g1 66886 <first : 3 43 3 1075 f1a6 c8b8 f4f5 e6d7 66896 <first : 3 44 6 2271 f4f5 66896 <first : 3 54 6 2503 f4f5 e6d7 f1a6 c8b8 66906 <first : 3 54 7 2851 f4f5 e6d7 f1a6 c8b8 66916 <first : 4 59 8 4211 f4f5 e6d7 f1a6 c8b8 b2b3 66936 <first : 4 59 10 5704 f4f5 e6d7 f1a6 c8b8 b2b3 66956 <first : 5 34 12 9235 f4f5 e6d7 f1a6 c8b8 b2b3 d6e5 66966 <first : 5 35 13 9769 f1a6 66997 <first : 5 44 16 12872 f1a6 c8b8 c3c4 e6g4 a4c3 h8f8 67027 <first : 5 45 19 16626 f1b5 67067 <first : 5 47 23 21372 f1b5 c7c6 b5a6 c8b8 f4f5 e6d7 67117 <first : 5 47 28 28058 f1b5 c7c6 b5a6 c8b8 f4f5 e6d7 67317 <first : 6 47 48 56948 f1b5 c8b8 f4f5 c7c6 b5a6 e6d7 67487 <first : 6 47 65 84606 f1b5 c8b8 f4f5 c7c6 b5a6 e6d7 68158 <first : 7 44 132 189872 f1b5 e6d7 b5d7 d8d7 a1d1 e7c6 c3c4 h8e8 a4c3 68278 <first : 7 45 144 208435 f1a6 68559 <first : 7 50 172 250911 f1a6 c8b8 c3c4 e6d7 a4c3 h8g8 a1d1 g8e8 68739 >first : . 69340 <first : 7 50 250 356301 f1a6 c8b8 c3c4 e6d7 a4c3 h8g8 a1d1 g8e8 71964 <first : 8 34 512 738801 f1a6 c8b8 c3c4 e7c6 f4f5 e6d7 a6b5 c6d4 b5d7 d8d7 72274 <first : 8 35 543 782188 f1b5 74017 <first : 8 50 718 1032938 f1b5 e6d7 b5d7 d8d7 f2f1 e7g6 f4f5 d6f4 e3c5 b6c5 f5g6 f7g6 a4c5 75288 <first : 8 50 845 1194304 f1b5 e6d7 b5d7 d8d7 f2f1 e7g6 f4f5 d6f4 e3c5 b6c5 f5g6 f7g6 a4c5 82349 <first : 9 46 1551 2264383 f1b5 c8b8 f2g1 e6c8 a1e1 c8b7 e3d2 h8g8 b5c4 83600 <first : 9 47 1676 2449002 f1a6 92804 <first : 9 47 2596 3782666 c3c4 98522 <first : 9 52 3168 4604711 c3c4 c8b8 a4c3 h8g8 f1e2 e6g4 e2g4 g8g4 a1d1 98912 <first : 9 52 3207 4657277 c3c4 c8b8 a4c3 h8g8 f1e2 e6g4 e2g4 g8g4 a1d1 109197 <first : 10 45 4236 6111680 c3c4 e7c6 a4c3 f6f5 e4e5 d6e7 f1e2 c6d4 a1c1 d4e2 c3e2 126482 <first : 10 45 5964 8593483 c3c4 e7c6 a4c3 f6f5 e4e5 d6e7 f1e2 c6d4 a1c1 d4e2 c3e2 152169 <first : 11 39 8533 12353963 c3c4 e7c6 f4f5 e6d7 a4c3 c8b8 f1e2 c6d4 a1d1 d6e5 e3h6 189212 <first : 11 40 12237 17650363 f1b5 256900 <first : 11 39 19006 27388546 c3c4 e7c6 f4f5 e6d7 a4c3 c8b8 f1e2 c6d4 a1d1 d6e5 e3h6 331457 <first : 12 19 26462 38327241 c3c4 e7c6 f1e2 f6f5 e4e5 d6e7 a4c3 f7f6 e2f3 c6b4 e5f6 e7f6 445290 <first : 12 20 37845 54720339 f1b5 573885 <first : 12 41 50703 73658634 f1b5 c8b8 h1e1 h8g8 f2g1 e6g4 e1f1 c7c6 b5a6 g4h3 f1f2 f6f5 646720 <first : 12 41 57988 84024550 f1b5 c8b8 h1e1 h8g8 f2g1 e6g4 e1f1 c7c6 b5a6 g4h3 f1f2 f6f5 PasteTextFromClipboard(): lock count 0 PasteTextFromClipboard(): lock count 0 PasteTextFromClipboard(): err 0 locked 0 PasteFenFromClipboard(): fen '2kr3r/p4pbp/1pp1b3/2pNPp2/2P2P2/PP2K3/6PP/2R2B1R w - - 0 1 ' 711864 >first : exit 711864 >first : force 711864 >first : new random 711864 >first : level 2400 120 0 711864 >first : post 711864 >first : hard 711864 >first : easy 711864 >first : force 711864 >first : setboard 2kr3r/p4pbp/1pp1b3/2pNPp2/2P2P2/PP2K3/6PP/2R2B1R w - - 0 1 711894 <first : Error (unknown command): exit 711904 <first : Error (unknown command): random 725854 >first : analyze 725964 <first : 1 156 0 134 d5e7 c8c7 725974 <first : 2 -201 1 346 d5e7 c8d7 c1d1 d7e7 725974 <first : 2 -200 1 378 d5c3 725984 <first : 2 -17 2 518 d5c3 c8b8 725984 <first : 2 -17 2 584 d5c3 c8b8 725994 <first : 3 -62 3 1242 d5c3 f7f6 e5f6 g7f6 726004 <first : 3 -61 4 1760 d5f6 726014 <first : 3 -34 5 2019 d5f6 g7f6 e5f6 726014 <first : 3 -34 5 2378 d5f6 g7f6 e5f6 726024 <first : 4 -46 6 2949 d5f6 g7f6 e5f6 c8b8 726034 <first : 4 -46 7 4138 d5f6 g7f6 e5f6 c8b8 726064 <first : 5 -30 10 7386 d5f6 g7f6 e5f6 h8g8 e3e2 726084 <first : 5 -30 12 10135 d5f6 g7f6 e5f6 h8g8 e3e2 726134 <first : 6 -36 17 18279 d5f6 g7f6 e5f6 h8e8 e3f3 d8d2 726174 <first : 6 -36 21 22993 d5f6 g7f6 e5f6 h8e8 e3f3 d8d2 726234 <first : 7 -53 27 32388 d5f6 g7f6 e5f6 h8e8 e3f2 d8d2 f2g1 c8b8 a3a4 726285 <first : 7 -52 32 38995 d5c3 726395 <first : 7 -31 43 55874 d5c3 f7f6 e5f6 g7f6 f1d3 h8g8 g2g3 f6c3 c1c3 726435 <first : 7 -31 47 61320 d5c3 f7f6 e5f6 g7f6 f1d3 h8g8 g2g3 f6c3 c1c3 726845 <first : 8 -36 87 126425 d5c3 c8b8 f1d3 f7f6 e5f6 g7f6 e3d2 h8e8 727006 <first : 8 -36 104 156944 d5c3 c8b8 f1d3 f7f6 e5f6 g7f6 e3d2 h8e8 728257 <first : 9 -32 229 343940 d5c3 c8b8 g2g3 f7f6 e5f6 g7f6 f1d3 f6c3 c1c3 728558 <first : 9 -32 259 399770 d5c3 c8b8 g2g3 f7f6 e5f6 g7f6 f1d3 f6c3 c1c3 731782 <first : 10 -45 581 911017 d5c3 f7f6 e5f6 g7f6 f1d3 h8g8 g2g3 c8b8 e3d2 g8f8 733585 <first : 10 -45 762 1192030 d5c3 f7f6 e5f6 g7f6 f1d3 h8g8 g2g3 c8b8 e3d2 g8f8 740034 <first : 11 -61 1407 2195950 d5c3 h8e8 f1e2 f7f6 e2h5 e8e7 c1d1 e6d7 e3f2 f6e5 h1e1 745893 <first : 11 -60 1992 3211983 d5f6 747735 <first : 11 -58 2177 3528271 d5f6 g7f6 e5f6 h8e8 e3f2 d8d2 f2g1 e6d7 h2h4 d2a2 a3a4 e8e6 f1d3 e6f6 748907 <first : 11 -58 2294 3720436 d5f6 g7f6 e5f6 h8e8 e3f2 d8d2 f2g1 e6d7 h2h4 d2a2 a3a4 e8e6 f1d3 e6f6 752452 <first : 12 -65 2648 4330008 d5f6 g7f6 e5f6 h8e8 e3f2 d8d2 f2g1 e8g8 h2h4 g8g3 h1h3 g3h3 g2h3 c8d7 772060 <first : 12 -65 4609 7563201 d5f6 g7f6 e5f6 h8e8 e3f2 d8d2 f2g1 e8g8 h2h4 g8g3 h1h3 g3h3 g2h3 c8d7 780342 <first : 13 -65 5437 8966013 d5f6 g7f6 e5f6 h8e8 e3f2 d8d2 f2g1 e6d7 h2h4 e8e3 h1h3 e3h3 g2h3 d2d6 g1f2 d6f6 817225 <first : 13 -65 9125 14735865 d5f6 g7f6 e5f6 h8e8 e3f2 d8d2 f2g1 e6d7 h2h4 e8e3 h1h3 e3h3 g2h3 d2d6 g1f2 d6f6 935265 <first : 14 -50 20930 35075216 d5f6 g7f6 e5f6 h8e8 e3f3 d8d2 c1c3 d2d1 c3d3 d1b1 f3f2 e8d8 d3e3 d8d2 f2g1 c8b8 1004515 <first : 14 -50 27855 45612215 d5f6 g7f6 e5f6 h8e8 e3f3 d8d2 c1c3 d2d1 c3d3 d1b1 f3f2 e8d8 d3e3 d8d2 f2g1 c8b8 1245000 <first : 15 -49 51903 86297401 d5f6 g7f6 e5f6 h8e8 e3f3 d8d2 c1c3 d2d1 c3d3 d1a1 a3a4 a1a2 f1e2 a2e2 f3e2 e6c4 e2d2 c4d3 d2d3 Debug without null move: 71703 <first : 1 193 0 79 f1a6 c8b8 71713 <first : 2 67 1 310 f1a6 c8b8 f2g1 71713 <first : 2 67 1 682 f1a6 c8b8 f2g1 71723 <first : 3 43 2 1107 f1a6 c8b8 f4f5 e6d7 71743 <first : 3 44 4 2451 f4f5 71743 <first : 3 54 4 2680 f4f5 e6d7 f1a6 c8b8 71753 <first : 3 54 5 3620 f4f5 e6d7 f1a6 c8b8 71773 <first : 4 59 7 4980 f4f5 e6d7 f1a6 c8b8 b2b3 71823 <first : 4 59 12 13139 f4f5 e6d7 f1a6 c8b8 b2b3 71853 <first : 5 34 15 17698 f4f5 e6d7 f1a6 c8b8 b2b3 d6e5 71893 <first : 5 35 19 24798 f1a6 71963 <first : 5 44 26 33609 f1a6 c8b8 c3c4 e6g4 a4c3 h8e8 72013 <first : 5 45 31 40690 f1b5 72093 <first : 5 54 39 51451 f1b5 c8b8 f4f5 c7c6 b5a6 72263 <first : 5 54 56 83505 f1b5 c8b8 f4f5 c7c6 b5a6 72464 <first : 6 47 76 119190 f1b5 c8b8 f4f5 c7c6 b5a6 e6d7 72724 <first : 6 48 102 170806 f1a6 73065 <first : 6 61 136 243577 f1a6 c8b8 c3c4 e6g4 a4c3 e7g6 f4f5 73585 >first : . 73676 <first : 6 61 197 350203 f1a6 c8b8 c3c4 e6g4 a4c3 e7g6 f4f5 74587 <first : 7 50 288 518879 f1a6 c8b8 c3c4 e6d7 a4c3 h8g8 a1d1 g8f8 78633 <first : 7 51 693 1309281 b2b3 79674 <first : 7 52 797 1475029 b2b3 c8b8 a4b2 e6d7 f1e2 d7c6 e2f3 82418 <first : 7 52 1071 2041533 b2b3 c8b8 a4b2 e6d7 f1e2 d7c6 e2f3 88437 <first : 8 28 1673 3153290 b2b3 e6d7 a4b2 c8b8 g2g3 d7g4 f1a6 h8e8 90339 <first : 8 29 1863 3554605 f1a6 100534 <first : 8 34 2883 5760469 f1a6 c8b8 c3c4 e7c6 f4f5 e6d7 a6b5 c6d4 b5d7 d8d7 104169 <first : 8 35 3246 6476498 f1b5 110118 <first : 8 44 3841 7632881 f1b5 e6d7 b5d7 d8d7 a1d1 h8e8 c3c4 e7g6 f4f5 g6e5 127713 <first : 8 44 5601 11667976 f1b5 e6d7 b5d7 d8d7 a1d1 h8e8 c3c4 e7g6 f4f5 g6e5 177515 <first : 9 50 10581 21282786 f1b5 c8b8 h1e1 h8g8 g2g3 e6h3 a1d1 c7c6 b5a6 273122 <first : 9 51 20141 41828311 c3c4 297127 <first : 9 60 22542 46155413 c3c4 h8g8 a4c3 c8b8 a1d1 e6g4 f1e2 f6f5 e4e5 g4e2 c3e2 318037 <first : 9 60 24633 51007671 c3c4 h8g8 a4c3 c8b8 a1d1 e6g4 f1e2 f6f5 e4e5 g4e2 c3e2 430609 <first : 10 45 35890 73195495 c3c4 e7c6 a4c3 f6f5 e4e5 d6e7 f1e2 c6d4 a1c1 d4e2 c3e2 PasteTextFromClipboard(): lock count 0 PasteTextFromClipboard(): lock count 0 PasteTextFromClipboard(): err 0 locked 0 PasteFenFromClipboard(): fen '2kr3r/p4pbp/1pp1b3/2pNPp2/2P2P2/PP2K3/6PP/2R2B1R w - - 0 1 ' 752031 >first : exit 752031 >first : force 752031 >first : new random 752031 >first : level 2400 120 0 752031 >first : post 752031 >first : hard 752031 >first : easy 752031 >first : force 752031 >first : setboard 2kr3r/p4pbp/1pp1b3/2pNPp2/2P2P2/PP2K3/6PP/2R2B1R w - - 0 1 752121 <first : Error (unknown command): exit 752121 <first : Error (unknown command): random 758120 >first : analyze 758240 <first : 1 156 0 134 d5e7 c8c7 758250 <first : 2 -201 1 346 d5e7 c8d7 c1d1 d7e7 758260 <first : 2 -200 1 378 d5c3 758260 <first : 2 -17 2 518 d5c3 c8b8 758270 <first : 2 -17 3 584 d5c3 c8b8 758270 <first : 3 -62 3 1242 d5c3 f7f6 e5f6 g7f6 758280 <first : 3 -61 4 1794 d5f6 758290 <first : 3 -34 5 2053 d5f6 g7f6 e5f6 758300 <first : 3 -34 6 2412 d5f6 g7f6 e5f6 758300 <first : 4 -46 6 3355 d5f6 g7f6 e5f6 c8b8 758320 <first : 4 -46 8 4896 d5f6 g7f6 e5f6 c8b8 758350 <first : 5 -30 11 8917 d5f6 g7f6 e5f6 h8g8 e3e2 758410 <first : 5 -30 17 22495 d5f6 g7f6 e5f6 h8g8 e3e2 758500 <first : 6 -36 26 40035 d5f6 g7f6 e5f6 h8e8 e3f3 d8d2 758640 <first : 6 -36 40 73758 d5f6 g7f6 e5f6 h8e8 e3f3 d8d2 758981 <first : 7 -53 74 138179 d5f6 g7f6 e5f6 h8e8 e3f2 d8d2 f2g1 c8b8 a3a4 759562 <first : 7 -52 132 250968 d5c3 760183 <first : 7 -31 194 362072 d5c3 f7f6 e5f6 g7f6 f1d3 h8g8 g2g3 f6c3 c1c3 760523 <first : 7 -31 228 440395 d5c3 f7f6 e5f6 g7f6 f1d3 h8g8 g2g3 f6c3 c1c3 763377 <first : 8 -36 513 1064003 d5c3 c8b8 f1d3 f7f6 e5f6 g7f6 e3d2 h8e8 766602 <first : 8 -36 836 1865686 d5c3 c8b8 f1d3 f7f6 e5f6 g7f6 e3d2 h8e8 778799 <first : 9 -40 2055 4356475 d5c3 h8e8 f1e2 f7f6 e5f6 e6f7 e3f2 g7f6 g2g3 d8d2 789775 <first : 9 -39 3153 6694521 d5f6 796675 <first : 9 -40 3843 8291506 d5c3 h8e8 f1e2 f7f6 e5f6 e6f7 e3f2 g7f6 g2g3 d8d2 864473 <first : 10 -45 10623 23340358 d5c3 h8e8 f1e2 f7f6 e2h5 e8f8 e5f6 g7f6 e3f2 d8d2 c3e2 949895 <first : 10 -45 19165 43427940 d5c3 h8e8 f1e2 f7f6 e2h5 e8f8 e5f6 g7f6 e3f2 d8d2 c3e2 1152447 <first : 11 -61 39420 86726772 d5c3 h8e8 f1e2 f7f6 e2h5 e8e7 c1d1 e6d7 e3f2 f6e5 h1e1 1322521 <first : 11 -60 56428 122820367 d5f6 Uri
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