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Subject: Re: Contrast in playing strength.

Author: Mark Young

Date: 16:40:24 09/01/98

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On September 01, 1998 at 16:29:27, Amir Ban wrote:

>On September 01, 1998 at 13:54:54, Mark Young wrote:
>
>>On September 01, 1998 at 10:19:05, Amir Ban wrote:
>>
>>>On August 31, 1998 at 17:57:02, Mark Young wrote:
>>>
>>>>Is computer Vs computer testing now useless in gauging a chess program’s
>>>>strength playing humans? When Crafty gets killed playing Junior 5 by a wide
>>>>margin. And Fritz 5 draws a match with Rebel 10 even when Rebel 10 has a 2x
>>>>hardware advantage.
>>>
>>>Sounds like you are saying that comp-comp testing show such great rating
>>>differences that they can't possibly be realistic.
>>
>>But the results are skewed. Even in the SSDF testing if one program can get
>>one-sided results against one or two programs it will suggest a bigger advantage
>>against humans, Because it is #1 on the list. And with only a handful of
>>programs being near the top of the list there is not the pool size to correct
>>the over inflated rating. I am not saying that fast searches can not be the best
>>at playing humans. I find fritz 5 to be the best program I have tested so far
>>playing humans. But if computer Vs computer testing squashes other programs that
>>may be better at playing humans or just depresses the rating so much that the
>>general public will pass by the other programs that would also play very well
>>against humans seems very counter productive to the computer chess community as
>>a whole. And I only say this because the reason for computer Vs computer testing
>>was to give the public an idea of which programs are stronger and which ones are
>>weaker in general overall strength. Not which programs are best playing each
>>other but excluding humans. I don’t think this an issue of fast searches Vs slow
>>searches when it comes to playing humans. I think it has been shown that either
>>concept can play very well against strong humans.
>>
>>
>
>
>I didn't mention at all the issue of fast-searcher vs. slow-searcher, so I don't
>know why it comes up in your reply. The point I was making is that, for all we
>know, comp-comp testing also reflects comp-human results, and perhaps rating
>produced this way are really "objective".
>
>I'm not saying that this is necessarily true. I'm saying that this is the
>default assumption, and that the evidence we have points this way. People who
>claim that there are programs who will rate lower when measured in comp-comp
>games but are actually stronger in comp-human competition had better come up
>with something to substantiate that.
>
>Otherwise why should anyone assume that this is true ?
>

Yes more data is needed to prove this, but I will not take the reverse for
granted as I once did.

>Amir



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