Author: Vincent Diepeveen
Date: 13:15:32 10/13/02
Go up one level in this thread
On October 13, 2002 at 14:54:09, James Swafford wrote: it doesn't cover the start of the talk i see. yet thanks to Johan Hutting for logging some: aics% Schurick(IM) kibitzes: but there are many positions that we can exclude aics% Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: no highschool links please. :) aics% Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: a chessprogram searches only 10^20 of that aics% set kib 2 kibitz set to 2. aics% Schurick(IM) kibitzes: Universe isn't expanding as fast as it was at the very begining. aics% Schurick(IM) kibitzes: but it expands :-) aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: please direct all questions to me as a message aics% **ANNOUNCEMENT** from Darooha: "observe crazybird" not to watch the discussion with deep blue designer CB Hsu aics% Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: chess is 10^40 see journal of computerchess aics% **ANNOUNCEMENT** from Darooha: I mean observe NOW to watch aics% Darooha(DM) kibitzes: We can get started aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: shall we start now? aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: kib Ok welcome everyone! CrazyBird can you introduce yourself? aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: I started working on computer chess in 1985. aics% Darooha(DM) kibitzes: YEs, let's do it ..... introduciing CB hsu, system designer extrotranier aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: in roughly 6 months, i created a single chip move generator. aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: this chip was the basis for chiptest, dt i & dt ii for the next 10 years. aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: deep blue are based on new chips. aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: the 1996 & 1997 matches used different chips. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: Question from theinz: is there any chance that Deep Blue will return? aics% Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: both creation date 96 and 97 Hsu? aics% Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: what's the reason to use 2 type of chips? aics% Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: i usually in software go for the latest version therefore i ask aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: deep blue, as in IBM deep blue, is being donated to Smithsonian this month. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: so Deep Blue will never return to the chess scene again? aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: theoretically, i can create a new version, but only if there is a strong incentive to do so. aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: i don't think there will be one though. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: ok, next question: aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: i am working on shogi on the side these days. aics% **ANNOUNCEMENT** from LateKnight: Please offer your questions to CB Hsu through EeEk via an ICC message. Type --> message EeEK your question about Deep Blue and his new book aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: Question from Ram: can you ask him to explain the technical differences that make deep blue better or was it just speed aics% **ANNOUNCEMENT** from LateKnight: Please do NOT use kibitz for your questions. Message EeEk instead. Thanks! aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: the 1996 & 1997 version of Deep Blue are differnet mainly in the amount of chess knowledge. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: what was the difference? aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: we went to Benjamin's excellent chess school.:) aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: the hardware evaluation was completely revamped. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: next question: Seems like people wants to know what the exact meaning of ""12(6)" in the Deep Blue log files, can you explain this? aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: 12(6) means 12 plies of brute force (not counting the search extensions & quiescence). aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: 6 means the maximum hardware search depth allowed. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: Question from BenjaminBlue: with the success of deep blue, why wasnt it released as comercial software to run on a pc and do you think fritz would have played better powered by an ibm RS6000 aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: this means that the PV could be up to 6 plies deeper before quiescence. aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: deep blue is hardware, not software alone. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: kib what about the software? aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: the software cannot exist without the hardware. it is tailored for the hardware. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: Next question from gremista: does mr hsu think it is possible to compare deep blue's strenght to deep fritz's aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: it is. Deep Blue is way stronger:). aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: next question from Schurick: What does he think about today's chess programs and computers. And what is to his mind the way on which they will be improved. thanks aics% Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: rdee[598] whispers: 12(6) means 12 ply in software and 6 MORE ply in hardware ==> 12(6) means 12 plies of brute force (not counting the search extensions & quiescence)., so that's INCLUDING hardware depth that 12 aics% **ANNOUNCEMENT** from TD: For those watching the Crazybird (game 598) interview, please refrain from using Kibitz and Whisper ... please MESSAGE your questions to EeEk aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: they are good enough for us mortals:). it is not quite clear how to improve them. speed is still important in computer vs. computer. aics% refresh CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: but we have some evidence that knowledge can make a huge difference. aics% **ANNOUNCEMENT** from TD: For those watching the Crazybird (game 598) interview, please refrain from using Kibitz and Whisper ... please MESSAGE your questions to EeEk aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: Next question from fishbait: I heard that you guys ran Deep Blue on the opening books and found some Theoretical Novelties. Have those / will those be published, and if not, why not? aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: it is just not easy for software program to add chess knowledge. aics% **ANNOUNCEMENT** from TD: For those watching the Crazybird (game 598) interview, please refrain from using Kibitz and Whisper ... please MESSAGE your questions to EeEk aics% Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: don't ask an IBM guy whether intel is better please than ibm aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: i guess by now, they are published indirectly. The grandmasters on the project get to use them:). aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: i don't work for ibm any more. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: Question from CallTheFBI: is with today's technology couldn't IBM create another Deep Blue that was more powerful at a smaller cost? aics% reinforce(IM) kibitzes: does he see kibitz ? aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: sure. deep blue was done in 0.6 micron cmos. you can get 0.09 micron today... aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: it is even possible for a pocket pc to be as powerful as deep blue. aics% reinforce(IM) kibitzes: that is the weaver size that the processors are made out of the cromos right ? aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: Next question from reinforce: how do you view the developement of chess knowledge and search techniques after 1997 and the future of these aspects...I am interesting if you think the same strategy will be aics% **ANNOUNCEMENT** from TD: For those watching the Crazybird (game 598) interview, please refrain from using Kibitz and Whisper ... please MESSAGE your questions to EeEk CtID(64): AAAAAARGH! this is AGONY! Wall-to-wall muppets asking dumb questions :-( aics% t 64 what did you expect? Celes(C)(64): what did you expect? (told 111 people) aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): that's where the talk is meant for aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: i don't think there is any major development within the last 5 years, other than intel's processor speed in crease & the use of multiprocessors in commercial programs (crafty's contribution) aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: next question from EeEk & fishbait: Are Deep Blue's training games published somewhere? How many games did Deep Blue play vs GMs that are available to look at? EeEk also heard that Deep Blue DID play a game vs Deep Fritz, do you know anything about this? aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: the training games are ibm properties, but a few games are published, I believe. Chris Chabrid may have them published somewhere. they are against deep blue jr. though. no, there was never any game between deep blue and fritz, despite claims to the contrary. we considered fritz too weak to be interesting. aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: should be chabris. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: I heard that Fritz did play a match against Deep Blue in Hong Kong 1995,according to one of the Fritz programmers, is this not true? aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: false advertisement. deep blue does not exist until 1996. aics% aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: false advertisement. deep blue does not exist until 1996. aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: the new chip was not completed until january 1996... aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: That's interesting. aics% Notification: Diepeveen has departed. aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: they relabeled the machine they played to take advantage of the publicity. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: question from arconia: do you agree that by developing this standard of chess play that the analytical side of chess will now be more prevalent than the strategical side and that this will have an effect on otb chess and the popularity of it? aics% Notification: Diepeveen has arrived. aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): back. another disconnect aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): blitzin not working for me aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: i am afraid that it is beyond my expertise to answer that question:). aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: question from mpjaya: - How many programmers worked on the project Deep Blue in total? aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: it was a three-person project, Murray, Joe and I. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: next question from theinz: Is it possible that the games were published in the American Chess Journal? aics% **ANNOUNCEMENT** from LateKnight: please refrain from whispering or kibbing on board 598, CB Hsu's interview. A log will be available of the interview if you arrived late. Message eeek your question for Mr. Hsu. Thanks aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: you mean the training games? i think it was in some sort of game magazine. aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: they are not really training games proper, but the test games against grandmasters for benchmarking purpose. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: You said earlier that you believe Deep Blue is stronger than Deep Fritz, what do you have to say to Kramnik's claim that Deep Fritz is stronger? aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: money talks. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: obviously :) aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: actually that is not completely fair. sometimes people get blindsided. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: question from TomBrooklyn: question is Was Deep Blue a unique type of computer or was it comparable to any standard IBM computer at the time with special software? If it was comparable, which regular IBM product was Deep Blue similar to? aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): good question eeek aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: it is not really a standard product, although the base machine was (RS/6000 SP). aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: in terms of real computation speed, deep blue was comparable to something like a 10 teraops machine. aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: ibm does not count that way when they advertise though. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: Next question from theinz: Can you give us the last names for "Murray and Joe"? And do you think you could create a chess program that could crush Deep Fritz? aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: murray campbell and joe hoane. yes to the second question, in simul even. aics% **ANNOUNCEMENT** from TD: For those watching the Crazybird (game 598) interview, please refrain from using Kibitz and Whisper ... please MESSAGE your questions to EeEk aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: question: As a young chessstudent I read that Bent Larsen claimed to have calculated that the possible possitions in chess is about 10 in 120... When your team was visiting denmark in 1993 ? I read that the Deep Thought project had calculated it to be about 10 in 120 too... Is this asessment still right ? aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: i don't think we did any calculation of that kind. murray quoted something from literature, i believe. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: Next question from pille: Which strength would DeepBlue have actually after updating with new chips - which ELO value? Thanks aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: we don't know. best guess would be kasaprov +- 100:). aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: question from schroeder: YOu were talking about incentive to bring deep blue back ... how MUCH on an incentive are you thinking about ? aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: maybe more like emotional incentive. when i quit ibm, i wanted to do it, but kasparov was not cooperating:). not as interested these days. aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): oh why ask such silly questions. no one asks either whether anand can crush Aljechin, assuming aljechin has no knowledge learned last 60 years aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: question from SJLIM: Is it possible to get any proof of games between DB/DB2/DBjr and the commercial programs? Just to finally dispell any doubt. Are game logs available from you? aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: it also depends on how easy it is. if i have the shogi machine completed, it would not be so hard. aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): gotta go aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): back in a few hours aics% Notification: Diepeveen has departed. aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: i no longer have access to the games or the machine, for that matter. it is up to ibm. it is not that important to them, anyway. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: Question from EeEk and others: Can you tell us something about your book? Why do you want people to buy it? aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: i started working on it in 1998. one of the reasons for doing it is to let people know about the real stories. the poeple invloved and so on. I also wanted to let people realize that it was not just a machine, there are real people involved... aics% reinforce(IM) kibitzes: the question is: in its match against kramnik, deep-fritzt has proven to have ample tachtical capability but less strategical one. This would as I understand it also be that case with deep-blue. Do you see any ways for chessprograms to overcome this drawback ? aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: next question from guzzzler: What's your comments on Kasparovs claim of faul play? And: Were the conditions fair, for example in the Deep Fritz match, they are not allowed to change anything but the opening book. aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: no easy way around. you just have to do the dirty work of adding the knowledge. aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: i have ample comments on kasparov's claim of foul play in the book. aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: the conditions are fair, as long as you agree that both sides can have secret weapons as in human matches. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: next question from Forsaken as a follow up: After Kramnik wins this match and if they approached you about having a Deep Blue 3 play Kramnik would that be incentive enough? (to return with Deep Blue) aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: that might depend on my employer, as well as the match condition. the fritz match conditions are only acceptable when you are not interested in winning the match, i.e., you know that you are competitive. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: Question from TomBrooklyn: Since the Deep Blue project was completed, have you thought of any ways to further improve the program? If so, how much stronger do you think you could make it? How many man-hours of work would you estimate would be required to do so? Would you need the help of any GMs? aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: that is, if you are competitive, you would not accept the conditions. sorry for the slip up. aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: you always need the help of GMs. there are many things we could have done, but elected to skip due to time constraints. how strong could we make it? i don't think there is a real upper limit. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: Question from many: Back to your book. If I wanted to buy the book, where do I go? aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: currently, amazon seems to give a decent discount (30% off). half.com might be lower though, but i have not been checking up on that. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: Question from SJLIM: Hsu, I'm wondering if you would be open to having another discussion to answer more technical questions from chess programmers. I ask this because I believe both this session and your book are geared more to the general chess public as opposed to computer chess groupies. =) aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: hm, i guess that is possible. check with darooha:). aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: question from MrSerious: Are the other two programmers, Murrey and Joe involved in productions of chess computer play? aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: i don't quite follow that question. we all were involved in the programming, although i am more hardware oriented. aics% **ANNOUNCEMENT** from LateKnight: please do not kibitz or whisper during the interview. Message EeEk your questions. Thanks Left the following message for EeEk: --Celes (12:49 13-Oct-02 EDT): for hsu: I understood that 2 chips were mixed, old ones and new ones with more knowledge. Why didn't you use just the new ones? aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: so they are STILL involved? aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: oh, you mean whether they are still active? aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: right aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: joe has left for a DSP startup, and murray is doing data mining these days, i believe. aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: and ibm is giving deep blue to smithsonian... aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: don't know whether it would be an active display or not. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: question from Celes: I understood that 2 chips were mixed, old ones and new ones with more knowledge. Why didn't you use just the new ones? aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: sorry for the mixup. the 1997 deep blue only used 1997 chips. aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: all 480 of them. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: Question from many: What is the chance of Deep Blue returning after it was donated to the Smithonians? Are you remorsefull that Deep Blue is going to the Smithsonian? aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: it is an appropriate place for deep blue. deep blue, as it was, probably won't ever return--both Joe and I are no longer with IBM... aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: i did get the right for the chip from ibm, so a descendent is possible, just don't bet on it. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: kib question from wohl: Are there restrictions on what the smithsonian may do with it? Can they set it up for visitors to play? aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: that i don't know. it might depend on the software status. they should be enough hardware left over to create some working system. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: Question from theinz: Does Mr.Hsu think the the human mind would ever be as strong as the strongest man made computer? aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: human mind is far more adaptive. "strong" is an unclear terms to use in this context. aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: and computers as of now are only idiot savant. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: question from darkone: For CB: Is your book written more for technical people or the layman? Also, what is the title of the book? aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: it is for layman. "Behind Deep Blue: Building the Computer That Defeated the World Chess Champion". the book is really supposed to be out in november. so probably all the book reviews won't come out until nov. amazon does have one reader review already though. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: kib question from Frantic: According to what was published DB was evaluating 200 million positions per second (vs 2.5 to 5 million for the 8-way Simmons server running Deep Fritz). How fast would be Beep Blue today if the project continued? aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: it contains a few reference at the end of the book for the more technically inclined. aics% Notification: Diepeveen has arrived. aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: if we redo the chip in say, 0.13 micron, and with a improved architecture, it should be possible to do one billion nodes/sec on a single chip. aics% Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: but what's the use without hashtables aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: so a trillion nodes/sec machine is actually possible today. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: question from Naisortep: Do you think todays top programs, such as the latest version of fritz, would be stronger than Deeper Blue if running on Deeper Blue's hardware ? aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: i was planning to shock kasparov should he agree to a new match:). aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: no, they would not know how to make use of the hardware:). aics% Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: Hsu what search depth would you expect to get , nominal spoken, using the latest innovations like nullmove, hashtables and better ordering methods? aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: Can you also explain how to translate nodes/sec into positions a sec? what exactly does it mean? aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: it is the same. nodes/sec == positions/sec. just jargon. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: Ok, good to know. aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): who cares for nodes a second. aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: some people were asking my current status. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: Another question that seems to be popular: Do you think computers are able to SOLVE chess ? Could that ever happen? aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: i left ibm in 1999. joined compaq last year, and got merged into hp this year. deep fritz is using a compaq machine, so i am not going to be harsh on them:). aics% Sephirot(64): current status: On for: 1:51 Idle: 0 aics% Sephirot(64): :) aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: solving chess? interesting question. aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: it is not impossible, although unlikely. it is estimated that the total number of different chess positions is something like 10^40. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: So any idea when this eventually will happen? :) aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: square root of that is 10^20. this could be a lower bound for the size of the proof tree. aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: and 10^20 is not an impossible number. aics% RossA(DM) kibitzes: how would you ever publish such a proof? how would anyone check it? aics% **ANNOUNCEMENT** from TD: For those watching the Crazybird (game 598) interview, please refrain from using Kibitz and Whisper ... please MESSAGE your questions to EeEk aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: Can you explain what you mean by "10^20" ? aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: 1 followed by 20 zeros. or 100 billion billion. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: Right, so that will take some time, even for the strongest computer... aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: that is an optimstic estimate though. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: kib question from ardee: Does "12(6)" mean 12 total ply or 12+6=18 total ply? This has the been source of huge arguments for years! aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: 12 total in terms of brute force. 6 is just the max partition in hardware. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: question from parabola444: You mentioned Deep Blue searched about 12 plies brute force + extensions, which is similar to what pc programs these days get on a fast pc - since Deep Blue hardware was much faster, how come it didn't search significantly deeper ? aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: to all the book readers, if you do like the book, please tell your friends would might be interested. thanks. aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: replace would with who:). aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: we were using fairly extensive search extensions, and the decision not to use null move pruning was an deliberate one. aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: there were several reasons. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: question from oddg: Back to the WC 1995, There was an entry with the name Deep Blue (Fritz won against DB), did it not have any relations to your Deep Blue? (EeEk: any idea how Deep Blue's name got in there, is this completely false?) aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: first, we were always at the top of the heap, and the occasional error introduced by null move could cause us to lose games to lesser programs. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: Ok, you will get some time to answer those questions :) aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: second, we observed that we were zugzwanging null move using opponents, which made us suspicious of it. aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: third, it is not clear how to incorporate with singular extensions & null move pruning. they did not seem to be that compatible. though Ferret seems to suggest that it is possible. anyway, given that singular extensions are considered far more important in creating deep lines, we keep what we know. aics% Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: DIEP(C) here is using nullmove + singular extensions. it isn't easy indeed. aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: fourth, and not least, speed was more than adequate, and we did not need to resort to null move. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: Ok, very interesting. aics% Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: wasn't it a shock to you that you could outsearch opponents around 1997 by like 3 ply and in 1999 that software advanced so much? aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): for nullmove +ch 64 aics% Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: for nullmove +ch 64 aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: question from oddg: Back to the WC 1995, There was an entry with the name Deep Blue (Fritz won against DB), did it not have any relations to your Deep Blue? (EeEk: any idea how Deep Blue's name got in there, is this completely false?) aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: deep blue did not play in 1995, since it did not exist yet. it was just deliberate relabeling on the part of commercial vendors, for obvious reasons. aics% kenspe(64): ? aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): nullmove = assumption that you can prune away lines if you are ahead bigtime. for example after 1.e4,h5 2.qxh5,rxh5 3.d4 then black says: "please play some more moves with white, if that doesn't proof you win, then i don't need to search all the nonsense" aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): all the nonsense after 1.e4,h5 2.qxh5,rxh5 3.d4 aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): so black is doing NO move aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): ==> null move Left the following message for EeEk: --Celes (13:26 13-Oct-02 EDT): for hsu: so if Deep blue didn't play, what did play under that name? aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: Question from TomBrooklyn: Follow up to 12(6) ply: What does max partition in hardware mean? aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): finger gerbil for url on computerchess programming aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: the program played was deep thought ii. which was vastly inferior to deep blue in chess knowledge as well search speed (1000 to 1 ratio in effective speed, 100 to 1 in raw speed) aics% Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: tell crazybird sorry for the off topic question, but where can i order your book. i need ISDN number i fear if i want to order it here. creditcards not common in europe. aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: and we were as unlucky as kramnik is today:). aics% Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: oops aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: question from winechess: How far do you see computer chess and A I coming in the next 10 yrs and how strong do you think they will be as far a elo? aics% TimM(64): i tried to ask about the possibility of DB chess chips on a PCI card, but its not getting asked aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: i will answer diep's question first. you can find the isbn number in the news item for this lecture. aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: or you can find it on the amazon web site. aics% SJLIM(*)(64): its been asked years ago Tim.. Hsu was going to do it.. but abandoned the idea. aics% TimM(64): i see aics% SJLIM(*)(64): Chessbase had covered the facts.. it was around the time Kasparovs agent declined doing a rematch. aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): the problem is money aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: now back to the normal question. it is hard to say. speed will increase for sure, intel is going to make sure of that. aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): producing 0.13 micron chips is about 10MLN dollar aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): and you need to produce 100k of them aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): then another $100 for pci card technology aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): each card aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): peanut to put it on a pci card btw aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): however aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): alternative aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: Could you estimate a rating in say, 10 years in the future? Is that possible? aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): is creating a fpga version running at 33Mhz or so (deep blue = 20, 24 Mhz aics% TimM(64): i suppose but there are existing chips going usused aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): that's $10k aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: but the knowledge part may be more difficult. some of the things we did in deep blue are very expensive to do in software, and i am not sure the commercial programmer would be willing to go for them. aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): the problem is aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): he doesn't want to join any tournament with it aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): he has the chiprights aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): he has chips aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): the old chips aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): he doesn't want to join tournaments aics% TimM(64): yeah aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): my diep, of course also all OTHER software from now aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): like deepfritz aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): deep junior aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): deep shredder aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): all those software aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): crushes 1997 programs aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): by like 100% aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): nearly 100% aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): sometimes a draw by book aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): i did a match recently aics% OrionsKnight(64): so what do you call it if you make an SMP diep? aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): diep - nimzo98 aics% OrionsKnight(64): deep diep? aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: that might be an impossible question to answer. it depends on the will of the people involved. aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): nimzo98 was at its time #1 of ssdf aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): it was 10-0 for diep aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): at 40 in 2 level aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): then i stopped match aics% gambitmaster(C)(64): How about the Nolot results of Deep Thought . Do you know any program that comes even close?? aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): Jan Louwman did aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): as you see from specifications aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: Thought so. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: There have also been a couple of questions regarding the rematch. Why didn't IBM want to offer Kasparov a rematch? aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): deep blue was designed to solve only tactics aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): it forward pruned in hardware aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): it extended singular moves aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): it extended threats aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): and it had a small search depth overall aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): 12 ply aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): with 126MLN nodes aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): so it was made to solve tactical jokes aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): which for someone who can't play chess aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: or accept the offer of a rematch who Kasparov supposedly made aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): is a very good thing to do aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): because in 1990 aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): all games were decided before move 25 aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): the program giving away a queen first lost the game aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: inside ibm, what i heard was that lou, ibm ceo, was all for giving kasparov a rematch, purely for sportsmanship reason. aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: but with the incessant attacks on ibm, even the best intentioned people had their limits... aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: so Kasparovs attack IBM made it impossible? aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: attack on, even aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: it played a very big part of it. ibm actually had an advertisement/endorsement deal with kasparov--of course, it did not go anywhere. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: Next question from many: Do you follow the chess world or play yourself? or are you only into computer chess? aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: the play part. no, i don't play chess--i only played the world chess champion on tv:). aics% redshift(C)(64): I asked "Did you keep the details of Deep Thoughts evals for each move in the match? If not, why not? If so, can they be published?" but not being put to him. Someone else want to ask the same? aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: But you follow the news etc, and follow the Kramnik-Deep Fritz match? aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): the logfiles are published from deep blue aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): in 2000 aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): if you want them i can email them to you aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): but i hope you know something about computerchess aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): it's very technical aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: well, i do play a few games. I am no better than 1800. i stopped following chess or computer chess for a while. but people contantly remind me of these things:). aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): search outputs aics% SJLIM(*)(64): its on the watson site too I believe. aics% redshift(C)(64): How big? Or what url? aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): yes aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: Question from SJLIM: Just for the record. Could you explain to the chess public the history about a certain Chess card that you wanted to build once upon a time? aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): get it there that's easier :) aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): but get the cleaned versions aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): because aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): it has a billion dots in the files aics% TimM(64): someone keeps asking me - guest859(U) tells you: hello ; could you aksed to hsu " do you know that a new chip called "BRUTUS" is about out ? what do you think about it ?" aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: you mean the kasparov butt kicking device? aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: I guess so aics% aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: just joking. since kasparov was not interested in playing, i gave up. aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): yes aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): i know chrilly well aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): and i played brutus aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): the guest is in this channel? aics% TimM(64): he must be, to get my name aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: you could build something similar with FPGA's today though. aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): it's very strong aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): it became 3d of world champs aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): and that in 2002 aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): very good aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): it won from me aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: Another personal question, from DiMarco: Mr. Hsu I read in 1991 you had a Ph.D. where did you do your B.S. or where did you grow up? How did you become interested in computer chess? aics% redshift(C)(64): He's just talking about FPGAs now aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): impressive game aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: that is how i am going to build a shogi machine in the first step. aics% SearcherX(C)(64): still not clear about depth. Was it 12+6+extensions+qsearch ? aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): it was 12 ply aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): and hardware depth WITHIN that 12 ply aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): was up to 6 ply aics% redshift(C)(64): ... for shogi aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): from 1 to 6 ply aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): in my parallel search aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): i do it from 2 or 3 to n ply aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): right now 2 aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): might change it back to 3 aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: In the book, there is an appendix that gives details about my life before the project. aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): it is very clear answerred. 3 times :) aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: i was born in taiwan and attended national taiwan university there. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: Ok, so everyone who wants an answer to these personal questions, BUY your book? :) aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: i was trained as an EE, hence the hardware interest. aics% Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: bootneck[598] whispers: why are you called crazybird? ==> i guess that's in the book too aics% Notification: is318-2 (with whom you have an adjourned game) has arrived. aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: my interest in computer chess was probably triggered by media reports on computer chess. aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: finding the book "chess skill in man and machine" while in college was probably the final straw. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: question from Aldos: Is there such a think as computer chess style, or all is about machine strength and optimized algorithms? aics% Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: 320 pages. holy smoke. that cost some time to write aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: Crazybird was my nickname at high school. aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: Are there different styles for different computers? was that the question? aics% TimM(64): guest859(U) tells you: i'm Vincent Lejeune from CCC hello to everybody from channel64 ! ;o) aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): hello vincent le jeune!!! aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: hm, styles can come from different things. search algorithm can make a big difference. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: I guess aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): allo allo allo aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): they speak very little other languages than french in Liege :) aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: I guess he means if computers can play like humans if machine strength has anything do do with that aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: chess knowledge can do the same thing as well. before the 1997 match, joel benjamin made an intresting comment. aics% Diepeveen(FM)(64): ==> i played for belgium club Hoboken a week ago in belgium, Liege/Luik . and Vincent Lejeune was there too!! aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: he said, "you know, sometimes deep blue plays chess." aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: Interesting! aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: Question from Frantic: There have been media reports that Deep Fritz is running on a Simmons 8-way server . You mentioned Compaq - did you mean in the match vs Kramnik? Do you know any details about that box? aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: a few questions. my wife would kill me if i stay here much longer:). nice talking to you all though. aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: sorry, a few more questions. aics% Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: thanks for your courage to go to the cross fire here and answerring some questions! aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: That's fine, thanks a lot for taking time to answer the questions, I've received more than 300 questions, obviously couldn't answer them all aics% Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: one small technical quesiton aics% Diepeveen(FM) kibitzes: up to how many plies did you forward prune in hardware? aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: the simmons box? there is a photo that showed compaq logo on chessbase web site... aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: The Questions and Answers will be saved and stored and made available. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: Ok, a few more questions: aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: question from Karol: After what happened in game 2 vs. Kasparov, why did IBM never deliver the printouts of the game as promised? aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: they were delivered. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: ok, so that is false? aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: kasparov has the relevant log, and of course, everything is on the web today. aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: the entire log, that is. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: question from TomBrooklyn: The (revised) Question Is: Have you read the book "A NEW ERA, How Garry Kasparov Changed The World Of Chess" which is about Kasparov-Deep Blue 1996 and 1997 (and has a couple of pictures of you in it.) What is your impression of that book? aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: i did not read that, and don't intend to. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: Ok, one last question: aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: Question from EeEk: Do you think computers will dominate the chess world, and if yes, when? Do you think chess has a future then? aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: chess will always have a future as long as people find it fun to play. will the computer dominate? nay, we will just ban them:). aics% CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: thanks you all for coming. once again, if you like the book, please do spread the words around, thanks. aics% EeEk(DM) kibitzes: Ok, that's it! Say Thanks to CrazyBird for his answers! It was a pleasure! aics% neeltje2(WGM) kibitzes: thanks CrazyBird aics% > >If anybody has a transcript or log file of today's Q/A, would >you please post it on the net, or send it to me via email? > > >Thanks, >-- >James
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