Author: Bernhard Bauer
Date: 00:06:48 09/03/98
Go up one level in this thread
On September 01, 1998 at 15:57:49, Djordje Vidanovic wrote:
>Bernhard Bauer claims that this kind of position NEVER occurs in real games...
>But it does -- therefore I AM taking his claim *cum grano salis* :-)
>Anyway, here goes:
>
>>[FEN "8/8/8/5pp1/8/1K6/2pp1Q2/2k5 w - - 0 1"]
>>[PlyCount "5"]
>>[EventDate "1907.??.??"]
>
>1. Qe3 f4 2. Qf2 d1=Q (2... f3 3. Qe3) 3. Kc3 f3 4. Qe3+ Kb1 5. Qb6+ Kc1 6. Qb2#
>1-0
>
Dear Djordje,
hmm.. well, my post was a little bit ironic. I contradicted mydelf in one
sentence, so it should have been obvious. I wrote something like: "It never
occurs .. and if it occurs ..."
And I gave the usual view of a lot of programmers posting here - not mine.
Many programmers play only on a subset of chess. It's
Nullmovechess = { Chess - Nullmovepositions }
That aproach seam to work for them and if their Elo values go up they
are happy. They do not even feel bad when they are not able to solve the
most simple positions.
That those positions occur frequently is obvious here in CCC. Hardly
a week goes by without having one or more of these positions here.
But if you play 100000 games of Nullmovechess how often will a Nullmoveposition
occur? Zero times.
The programmers argumentation reminds me on the old days when they said:
"The computer can not do this." And when ibm told us again and again: "It's
not a bug, it's a feature!"
Now we have the "null move without zugzwang detection feature" and the
"insufficient material feature".
A good aproch to chess programming would be: First right then fast!
Hope you understand my point a little bit better.
Kind regards
Bernhard
>This is a relatively simple position where white wins in 12 plies or less, but
>several programs fail to find Qe3, even after a search deeper than 12 plies.
>
>After at least 5 minutes on a PII-400 with 256 MB RAM, Hiarcs 6, Fritz 5, Mchess
>7.1, Nimzo 98, Crafty 15.17, Exchess 2.34 and Junior 4.6 don’t find the
>solution. Junior plays instantaneously Kc3?? and announces mate in 4,
>overlooking the obvious underpromotion d1N+.
>
>Time to find Qe3 with a winning evaluation:
>Genius 5W, 13 secs.
>Rebel 9, 30 secs.
>Rebel 10, 24 secs.
>Shredder 2, 24 secs.
>
>>Strange that there is so much difference between programs in this position.
>
>>What would Ferret, Dark Thought and others play?
>
>>Enrique
>-----------------------------
>Dear Enrique:
>
>I don't know about Ferret -- just heard about Dark Thought. Anyway, on my AMD
>K6-2/300 Genius found the winning sequence in 5 seconds, Shredder 2 in 21
>seconds (+5.75), and Patzer (2.99 zp) in 20 seconds (+10.68).
>
>Regards,
>Djordje
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