Author: Vincent Diepeveen
Date: 08:15:17 10/14/02
Go up one level in this thread
On October 12, 2002 at 22:42:28, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On October 12, 2002 at 10:33:29, Omid David wrote: > >>On October 12, 2002 at 09:53:42, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On October 12, 2002 at 08:29:24, Omid David wrote: >>> >>>>On October 11, 2002 at 21:57:34, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>> >>>>>On October 11, 2002 at 17:51:27, Omid David wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On October 11, 2002 at 11:51:13, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On October 11, 2002 at 07:43:40, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On October 11, 2002 at 07:12:34, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On October 11, 2002 at 04:08:49, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Isn't his article clear enough yet? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Bob Hyatt still claims that it was 12 plies software and 6 plies hardware >>>>>>>>so I prefer to hear an answer directly from Hsu. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I agree. But _I_ don't claiam _anything_ except that members of the DB team >>>>>>>specifically told me that 12(6) means 12 plies in hardware, 6 in software. I >>>>>>>even posted the excerpt from the email that specifically said this... >>>>>>> >>>>>>>That is _all_ I have said about it... >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>No matter what they say, even under extreme theoretical conditions it is >>>>>>*impossible* to search 18 plies of brute force in chess, without any type of >>>>>>forward pruning whatsoever, and no hash tables. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>However, they have _never_ said they didn't use forward pruning. They have only >>>>>said "we don't use null-move for forward pruning" and nothing else. And they >>>>>have >>>>>slowly leaked details. But they pretty much had to since I had gone over their >>>>>log >>>>>files and discovered that theyt had a _very_ good branching factor, too good for >>>>>pure >>>>>alpha/beta alone... >>>>> >>>> >>>>Interesting... What was the average branching factor based on the logs you >>>>reviewed? >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>I don't remember the _exact_ number although I posted it here in CCC and several >>>were involved >>>in a long discussion about it.. but the number was something less than 4.0 I >>>believe, which is >>>_way_ below what a pure alpha/beta program can produce. >>> >>> >> >>I can't imagine a way for brute force alpha-beta to come up with a branching >>factor of anything even close to that number (esp. without hash tables). With >>regard to the branching factor, it seems that some kind of forward pruning was >>indeed in place... >> > >Remember, Deep Blue _did_ have hash tables. Only the last few plies (done in >hardware) >didn't have hashing. The first N plies hashed just like the rest of us... No their thing was too inefficient to make use of hashtables. You can see in the logfiles that in positions with loads of transpositions where all software programs of today search up to 5 ply deeper than in the other positions, that deep blue doesn't search a ply deeper there. Let me give 2 examples with diep which also uses singular extensions, but WITH hashtables and nullmove: --------------------------------------- --> Bf8e7r <-- --------------------------------------- 123 T=7 qd3c3 3(4) 95^ T=1 pc2c4 Pb5c4p qd3c4P Nd5b4 ra1e1 Kc8d8 re1e7B Kd8e7r 3(5) 103 T=1 qd3f5P Kc8b7 qf5d7N 4(5) 103 T=1 qd3f5P Kc8b7 qf5d7N 5(5)[Qxf5](97)[c4](133) 133^ T=1 pc2c4 Pb5c4p qd3c4P Nd5b4 ra1e1 Kc8d8 re1e7B Kd8e7r 5(5)[c4](159) 159 T=1 pc2c4 Nd5f6 pd4d5 Pb5c4p qd3c4P Nf6d5p 6(5)[c4](138) 138 T=1 pc2c4 Pb5c4p qd3c4P Nd5b4 ra1e1 Kc8d8 re1e7B Kd8e7r 7(5) #[c4](168) 168^ T=2 pc2c4 Pb5c4p qd3c4P Nd5b4 ra1e1 Kc8d8 re1e7B Kd8e7r 7(6) #[c4](169)######################################### 169 T=2 pc2c4 Nd5b6 qd3f5P Nb6c4p qf5e6 Bc6f3n 8(6) #[c4](182)######################################### 182 T=5 pc2c4 Pb5c4p qd3c4P Nd5b4 ra1e1 Rh8e8 re1e7B Re8e7r qc4b4N 9(6) #[c4](189)######################################### 189 T=18 pc2c4 Pb5c4p qd3c4P Nd5b4 ra1e1 Rh8e8 nf3h4 Pf5f4 nh4f5 Nd7b6 qc4f7 Nb4d5 10(6) #[c4](219) 219^ T=21 pc2c4 Pb5c4p qd3c4P Nd5b4 ra1e1 Rh8e8 nf3h4 Pf5f4 nh4f5 Nd7b6 qc4f7 Pf4g3b nf5e7B Re8e7n re1e7R 10(6) #[c4](220)######################################### 220 T=43 pc2c4 Pb5c4p qd3c4P Nd5b4 ra1e1 Rh8e8 nf3h4 Pf5f4 nh4f5 Nd7b6 qc4f7 Re8f8 qf7e6 Bc6d7 nf5e7B 11(6) #[c4](250) 250^ T=56 pc2c4 Pb5c4p qd3c4P Nd5b4 ra1e1 Rh8e8 nf3h4 Pf5f4 nh4f5 Nd7b6 qc4f7 Re8f8 qf7e6 Bc6d7 nf5e7B Kc8c7 bg3f4P #[c4](267)####################[TIMEOUT] 267 T=181 pc2c4 Pb5c4p qd3c4P Nd5b4 ra1e1 Rh8e8 nf3h4 Nd7b6 qc4f7 Nb4d5 nh4f5P Kc8d8 nf5g7P Re8h8 --------------------------------------- --> 19. c4 <-- 21/84:24 --------------------------------------- Game 6 move 19.c4 with DIEP: black timeleft=27:46.40.00 r = k = - = - r Bc1-f4 11 b7-b5 o - = n b - o - a2-a4 12 Bc8-b7 - = b = - = - o Rf1-e1 13 Nf6-d5 = o = n = o = - Bf4-g3 14 Kd8-c8 - = - O - = - = a4xb5 15 c6xb5 = - = Q = N B - Qd1-d3 16 Bb7-c6 - O O = - O O O Bg6-f5 17 e6xf5 R - = - = - K - Re1xe7 18 Bf8xe7 white timeleft=27:46.40.00 white to move type 'help' for command overview anal Analysis mode is on Engineflags=0 mask=1 denktime=10000000 maxtime=10000000 00:00 60 0k 0 0 3 (2) 1 (0,0) 1.372 Qd3xf5 00:00 4050 4k 0 0 324 (2) 2 (0,5) 0.123 Qd3xf5 Kc8-b7 ++ f3-e5 00:00 4187 4k 0 0 670 (2) 2 (0,11) 0.397 Nf3-e5 Nd7xe5 d4xe5 00:00 10312 10k 0 0 2475 (2) 3 (0,49) 0.397 Nf3-e5 Nd7xe5 d4xe5 ++ d3-f5 00:00 9596 10k 0 0 2687 (2) 3 (0,53) 0.798 Qd3xf5 Kc8-b7 Nf3-e5 Nd7xe5 Qf5xe5 00:00 15953 16k 0 0 6541 (2) 4 (0,96) 0.473 Qd3xf5 Kc8-b7 Nf3-e5 Rh8-f8 ++ c2-c4 00:00 24198 24k 0 0 14761 (2) 4 (6,122) 0.939 c2-c4 b5xc4 Qd3xc4 Nd5-b4 00:00 36171 36k 0 0 26767 (2) 5 (9,215) 1.329 c2-c4 Nd5-b4 Qd3xf5 b5xc4 Nf3-e5 00:00 46407 46k 0 0 42231 (2) 6 (10,278) 1.107 c2-c4 Nd5-b4 Qd3xf5 b5xc4 Qf5-e 6 Bc6xf3 Qe6xe7 00:01 74017 74k 0 0 120648 (2) 7 (13,381) 1.469 c2-c4 Nd5-b4 Qd3xf5 b5xc4 Nf3- e5 Bc6-b5 Qf5-e6 00:04 86738 87k 0 0 358231 (2) 8 (33,553) 1.864 c2-c4 Nd5-b4 Qd3xf5 b5xc4 Qf5- e6 Kc8-d8 Ra1-e1 Rh8-e8 Qe6xc4 00:11 111547 112k 0 0 1273877 (2) 9 (180,1570) 1.896 c2-c4 Nd5-b6 c4-c5 Nb6-d5 Q d3xf5 Kc8-b7 Nf3-e5 Rh8-f8 Qf5-e6 Nd7xe5 Qe6xe5 00:32 121518 122k 0 0 3926277 (2) 10 (628,3960) 2.495 c2-c4 Nd5-b4 Qd3xf5 Rh8-f8 Qf5-e6 Be7-d8 d4-d5 Rf8-f6 Qe6-g4 Bc6-b7 c4xb5 Nb4xd5 Qg4xg7 01:29 139712 140k 0 0 12477689 (2) 11 (669,4387) 3.180 c2-c4 Nd5-b4 Qd3xf5 Rh8-f 8 Qf5-e6 Be7-d8 c4xb5 Bc6xb5 Bg3-e5 g7-g5 Ra1-c1 Kc8-b7 h2-h3 03:25 151333 151k 0 0 31068755 (2) 12 (778,5153) 3.269 c2-c4 Nd5-b4 Qd3xf5 Rh8-f 8 Qf5-e6 Be7-d8 d4-d5 Rf8-f6 Qe6-g4 Bc6-b7 Nf3-e5 Rf6-d6 Ne5-c6 Rd6xc6 ok it is 200 seconds i need. Let's not cry for 20 seconds. But diep would not show within 3 minutes the 12 ply mainline here. It's still busy with mainline 12 ply after 3 minutes. Now let's try some endgame where deep blue didn't get deep either: --------------------------------------- --> nf3h4 <-- --------------------------------------- -9 T=152 Nb6c8 3(4) 12 T=0 Rd7f7 rg6e6 Rf7d7 re6e8 Rd7d1 kb1c2 Nb6c4p pb3c4N Rd1e1 4(5) 12 T=0 Rd7f7 rg6e6 Rf7d7 re6e8 Rd7d1 kb1c2 Nb6c4p pb3c4N Rd1e1 5(5)[Rf7](5)[Nc8](11) 11 T=0 Nb6c8 bg2d5 Nc8d6 kb1a1 Nf2e4 pg3g4 Ph5g4p 6(5)[Nc8](-9) -9 T=0 Nb6c8 bg2f3 Nf2g4 bf3g4N Ph5g4b nh4g2 Nc8d6 ng2e3 Nd6e4 ne3g4P Rd7e7 kb1c2 7(5) #[Nc8](3)######################## 3 T=1 Nb6c8 bg2d5 Nc8d6 kb1a1 Nf2e4 pg3g4 Ph5g4p 8(6) #[Nc8](-5)######################## -5 T=2 Nb6c8 bg2d5 Nc8d6 bd5e6 Rd7e7 nh4g2 Nf2g4 ng2f4 9(6) #[Nc8](-6)######################## -6 T=10 Nb6c8 bg2f3 Nf2g4 bf3g4N Ph5g4b nh4g2 Nc8d6 ng2e3 Nd6e4 ne3g4P Rd7e7 kb1c2 10(6) #[Nc8](-9)######################## -9 T=29 Nb6c8 bg2f3 Nf2g4 bf3g4N Ph5g4b nh4g2 Nc8d6 ng2e3 Nd6e4 ne3g4P Rd7e7 kb1c2 11(6) #[Nc8](-6)######################## -6 T=110 Nb6c8 bg2f3 Nf2g4 bf3g4N Ph5g4b nh4f5 Nc8e7 nf5e7N Rd7e7n rg6g7P Re7g7r 12(6) #[Nc8](-13)###[TIMEOUT] -13 T=192 Nb6c8 bg2f3 Nf2g4 bf3g4N Ph5g4b nh4f5 Nc8e7 nf5e7N Rd7e7n kb1c2 Pb7b6 pa2a3 Pa7a6 kc2d2 --------------------------------------- --> 34. .. Nc8 <-- 6/46:3 --------------------------------------- ++ d7-f7 00:00 4692 5k 0 0 2346 (2) 3 (2,54) 0.207 Rd7-f7 Bg2-d5 Rf7-e7 00:00 6170 6k 0 0 3394 (2) 4 (4,67) -0.005 Rd7-f7 Kb1-c2 Rf7-e7 Bg2-d5 ++ d7-e7 00:00 7338 7k 0 0 4623 (2) 4 (6,78) 0.130 Rd7-e7 Nh4-f5 Re7-e1 Kb1-c2 00:00 14497 14k 0 0 10438 (2) 5 (7,125) 0.128 Rd7-e7 Bg2-f3 Nf2-g4 Nh4-f5 Re7- e1 Kb1-c2 ++ d7-f7 00:00 14891 15k 0 0 12360 (2) 5 (7,134) 0.184 Rd7-f7 Bg2-f3 Nf2-g4 Bf3xg4 h5xg 4 00:00 21627 22k 0 0 20546 (2) 6 (9,194) -0.152 Rd7-f7 Bg2-f3 Nb6-d7 Bf3xh5 Nf2 -e4 g3-g4 ++ f2-d3 00:01 29224 29k 0 0 33024 (2) 6 (15,237) -0.064 Nf2-d3 Bg2-e4 Nd3-f2 Be4-f3 Nf 2-g4 Nh4-f5 00:01 56289 56k 0 0 94003 (2) 7 (34,411) -0.646 Nf2-d3 Nh4-f5 h5-h4 Nf5xh4 Nd3 -e5 Rg6-e6 Ne5-f7 ++ d7-f7 00:02 65390 65k 0 0 136013 (2) 7 (58,525) 0.036 Rd7-f7 Kb1-c2 Nf2-g4 Kc2-c3 Ng 4-e5 Rg6-e6 Rf7-f8 ++ b6-c8 00:02 74062 74k 0 0 191082 (2) 7 (67,595) 0.091 Nb6-c8 Kb1-c2 Nf2-g4 Bg2-f3 Ng 4-e5 Rg6-e6 Ne5xf3 Nh4xf3 00:03 79064 79k 0 0 270401 (2) 8 (108,818) -0.058 Nb6-c8 Bg2-f3 Nf2-g4 Bf3xg4 h5xg4 Kb1-c2 Rd7-e7 Nh4-f5 Re7-e2 Kc2-d3 Re2xa2 Rg6xg7 Kc7-c6 Nf5-e7 Kc6-b6 ++ d7-f7 00:04 76313 76k 0 0 328149 (2) 8 (134,935) 0.089 Rd7-f7 Bg2-f3 Nf2-g4 Rg6-e6 N b6-d7 g5-g6 Rf7-f6 Re6-e7 00:06 101434 101k 0 0 651207 (2) 9 (201,1405) -0.065 Rd7-f7 Rg6-e6 Nf2-g4 Re6-e8 Rf7-d7 Kb1-c2 Rd7-f7 Bg2-f3 Kc7-d6 ++ b6-c8 00:07 117169 117k 0 0 910404 (2) 9 (253,1696) -0.058 Nb6-c8 Bg2-f3 Nf2-g4 Bf3xg4 h5xg4 Kb1-c2 Rd7-e7 Nh4-f5 Re7-e2 Kc2-d3 Re2xa2 Rg6xg7 Kc7-c6 Nf5-e7 Kc6-b6 00:11 148037 148k 0 0 1686144 (2) 10 (326,2282) -0.185 Nb6-c8 Bg2-d5 Nc8-d6 Nh4- g2 Nd6-f5 Ng2-f4 Rd7-d6 Rg6xd6 Kc7xd6 Nf4xh5 g7-g6 ++ d7-f7 00:23 184024 184k 0 0 4322739 (2) 11 (574,4170) 0.038 Nb6-c8 Bg2-f3 Nf2-g4 Rg6-e 6 Rd7-e7 Bf3xg4 h5xg4 Re6xe7 Nc8xe7 Kb1-c1 Kc7-d6 Kc1-d2 Kd6-e5 Kd2-e3 00:34 198553 199k 0 0 6850093 (2) 12 (798,5722) -0.039 Nb6-c8 Bg2-f3 Nf2-g4 Rg6- e6 Rd7-e7 Re6xe7 Nc8xe7 Kb1-c2 b7-b6 Bf3xg4 h5xg4 Kc2-d3 Ne7-c6 a2-a3 01:00 213416 213k 0 0 12935199 (2) 13 (1200,8564) -0.069 Nb6-c8 Bg2-f3 Nf2-g4 Rg 6-e6 Rd7-e7 Re6xe7 Nc8xe7 Kb1-c2 b7-b6 Bf3xg4 h5xg4 Kc2-d3 Ne7-c6 Nh4-f5 Nc6-b4 Kd3-e2 02:20 223894 224k 0 0 31544563 (2) 14 (1945,14239) -0.124 Nb6-c8 Bg2-f3 Nf2-g4 R g6-e6 Rd7-e7 Re6xe7 Nc8xe7 Kb1-c2 b7-b6 Bf3xg4 h5xg4 Kc2-d3 Ne7-c6 Nh4-f5 Nc6-b4 Kd3-e2 06:06 225933 226k 0 0 82858962 (2) 15 (3821,26259) -0.114 Nb6-c8 Bg2-f3 Nf2-g4 R g6-e6 Rd7-e7 Re6xe7 Nc8xe7 Kb1-c2 a7-a6 Kc2-c3 b7-b5 Bf3xg4 h5xg4 Kc3-d3 Ne7-c6 Nh4-f5 Nc6-b4 Kd3-c3 After a lot of doubting diep finally gets to Nc8. Note i miss the doubting in deep blue completely always. It never doubts. Let's not discuss how simple it's eval is otherwise we get distracted from the measurement facts. After 3 minutes deep blue is busy at 12 ply. DIEP is busy after 3 minutes at 15 ply. So +3 ply there for diep. There is nearly 3 ply difference in search depth for DIEP. There is hardly 1 ply difference in deep blue. Even worse is the game 2 positions when todays software does not doubt: --------------------------------------- --> Qc7b6 <-- --------------------------------------- 123 T=168 ra8d8 Qd7d8r qc6b7R Qd8c7 qb7b5P Kf7e7 pg2g3 Ke7d8 kg1g2 Qc7c8 qb5b6 Qc8c7 qb6a6 Kd8d7 qa6a8 Qc7c8 3(4)[Kf1](30) 30^ T=2 kg1f1 Rb7b8 ra8a6 Qb6c6q pd5c6Q Kf7g8 be4d5 Kg8h7 ra6a7 Rb8c8 kf1e2 Bd6b4p 3(5)[Kf1](61) 61^ T=3 kg1f1 Rb7b8 ra8a6 Qb6c6q pd5c6Q Kf7g8 be4d5 Kg8h7 ra6a7 Rb8c8 kf1e2 Bd6b4p 3(5) 75 T=4 kg1h1 Rb7b8 qc6d7 Kf7g8 qd7e7 Bd6e7q 4(5)[Kh1](80)[Kh2](84) 84 T=4 kg1h2 Rb7b8 ra8a6 Qb6c6q pd5c6Q Kf7f8 ra6a7 5(5)[Kh2](81)[Kf1](86) 86 T=7 kg1f1 Rb7b8 ra8a6 Qb6c6q pd5c6Q Kf7g8 be4d5 Kg8h7 ra6a7 Rb8c8 kf1e2 Bd6b4p 6(5) #[Kf1](113)#### 113 T=9 kg1f1 Rb7b8 ra8a6 Qb6c6q pd5c6Q Kf7g8 be4d5 Kg8h7 ra6a7 Rb8c8 kf1e2 Bd6b4p 7(5) #[Kf1](96)#### 96 T=10 kg1f1 Rb7b8 ra8a6 Qb6c6q pd5c6Q Kf7g8 be4d5 Kg8h7 ra6a7 Rb8c8 kf1e2 Bd6b4p 8(6) #[Kf1](126)[Kf1](126) 126^ T=14 kg1f1 Rb7b8 ra8a6 Qb6c6q pd5c6Q Kf7g8 be4d5 Kg8h7 ra6a7 Rb8d8 bd5e6 Bd6b8 pc6c7 Bb8a7r pc7d8R/q #[Kf1](116)#### 116 T=25 kg1f1 Rb7b8 ra8a6 Qb6c6q pd5c6Q Kf7g8 be4d5 Kg8h7 ra6a7 Rb8c8 kf1e2 Pe5e4 bd5e4P 9(6) #[Kf1](116)#### 116 T=47 kg1f1 Rb7b8 ra8a6 Qb6c6q pd5c6Q Kf7g8 be4d5 Kg8h7 ra6a7 Rb8c8 kf1e2 Pe5e4 bd5e4P 10(6) #[Kf1](146)[Kf1](146) 146^ T=59 kg1f1 Rb7b8 ra8a6 Qb6c6q pd5c6Q Kf7g8 be4d5 Kg8h7 ra6a7 Rb8c8 ra7b7 Bd6b4p pc3b4B Rc8c6p bd5c6R #[Kf1](156)#### 156 T=143 kg1f1 Rb7b8 ra8a6 Qb6c6q pd5c6Q Kf7g8 be4d5 Kg8h7 ra6a7 Rb8c8 ra7b7 Ph6h5 rb7b5P Kh7h6 rb5b7 Rc8c7 rb7b8 11(6)[TIMEOUT] 156 T=192 kg1f1 --------------------------------------- --> 44. Kf1 <-- 16/78:52 --------------------------------------- Deep Blue plays Kf1? here busy at 11 ply mainline it gets timeout. Score for Kf1?, which is a move that blows the position to a draw. 00:03 88864 89k 0 0 271926 (2) 9 (28,312) 1.003 Kg1-f1 Rb7-b8 Qc6-d7 Kf7-g8 Ra 8-a7 Bd6-f8 Qd7-f7 Kg8-h7 d5-d6 Qb6-e3 Qf7-c7 Qe3xe4 Qc7xb8 Qe4-d3 Kf1-f2 Bf8xd6 Qb8xb5 Qd3xc3 ++ g1-h2 00:04 85000 85k 0 0 387604 (2) 9 (50,518) 1.056 Kg1-h2 Rb7-b8 Qc6-d7 Kf7-g8 Ra 8-a7 Bd6-f8 Be4-f3 Qb6-e3 d5-d6 Qe3-d3 Qd7-e6 Kg8-h8 00:04 91082 91k 0 0 448125 (2) 10 (55,546) 1.056 Kg1-h2 Rb7-b8 Qc6-d7 Kf7-g8 R a8-a7 Bd6-f8 Be4-f3 Qb6-e3 d5-d6 Qe3-d3 Qd7-e6 Kg8-h8 ++ g1-h1 00:08 119563 120k 0 0 974442 (2) 10 (193,1279) 1.686 Kg1-h1 Rb7-b8 Qc6-d7 Kf7-g8 Ra8-a7 Bd6-f8 Qd7-f7 Kg8-h7 d5-d6 Qb6-e3 Qf7-c7 Qe3-b6 Qc7xb6 Rb8xb6 00:08 124217 124k 0 0 1090626 (2) 11 (203,1354) 1.686 Kg1-h1 Rb7-b8 Qc6-d7 Kf7-g 8 Ra8-a7 Bd6-f8 Qd7-f7 Kg8-h7 d5-d6 Qb6-e3 Qf7-c7 Qe3-b6 Qc7xb6 Rb8xb6 00:16 148508 149k 0 0 2392471 (2) 12 (317,2238) 1.077 Kg1-h1 Rb7-b8 Qc6-d7 Kf7-g 8 Ra8-a7 Bd6-f8 d5-d6 Qb6-e3 Be4-d5 Kg8-h7 Qd7-f7 Qe3-c1 Kh1-h2 Qc1-f4 Kh2-h1 Qf 4xf5 Qf7-g8 Kh7-g6 Ra7-f7 Qf5-b1 Kh1-h2 Qb1-d3 Bd5xc4 Qd3xc4 Rf7xf8 ++ g1-h2 00:25 164463 164k 0 0 4230011 (2) 12 (606,3498) 1.885 Kg1-h2 Rb7-b8 Ra8-a6 Qb6xc 6 d5xc6 Rb8-c8 Ra6-a7 Rc8-c7 Ra7-a5 Bd6-f8 Be4-d5 Kf7-e7 Ra5xb5 Ke7-e8 00:29 167093 167k 0 0 4977715 (2) 13 (730,4253) 1.885 Kg1-h2 Rb7-b8 Ra8-a6 Qb6xc 6 d5xc6 Rb8-c8 Ra6-a7 Rc8-c7 Ra7-a5 00:39 174785 175k 0 0 6895275 (2) 14 (990,5960) 1.885 Kg1-h2 Rb7-b8 Ra8-a6 Qb6xc 6 d5xc6 Rb8-c8 Ra6-a7 Rc8-c7 Ra7-a5 01:07 187554 188k 0 0 12749953 (2) 15 (1896,10809) 1.879 Kg1-h2 Rb7-b8 Ra8-a6 Qb 6xc6 d5xc6 Rb8-c8 Ra6-a7 Kf7-f8 Ra7-b7 Rc8-c7 Rb7xb5 Kf8-e7 g2-g3 Rc7-a7 Kh2-g2 Ra7-a2 Kg2-f3 ++ g1-h1 01:31 194665 195k 0 0 17757373 (2) 15 (1999,11475) 1.887 Kg1-h1 Rb7-b8 Ra8-a6 Qb 6xc6 d5xc6 Kf7-f8 Ra6-a7 Rb8-c8 Ra7-b7 Rc8-c7 Rb7xb5 Rc7-a7 Kh1-h2 Ra7-a3 Rb5-b7 Bd6-e7 Be4-d5 g7-g5 ++ g1-f1 02:15 201192 201k 0 0 27342059 (2) 15 (2468,13754) 2.615 Kg1-f1 Rb7-b8 Ra8-a6 Qb 6xc6 d5xc6 Rb8-c8 Ra6-a5 Kf7-f8 Ra5xb5 Kf8-e7 Be4-d5 Rc8-b8 Rb5xb8 Bd6xb8 c6-c7 Bb8xc7 Bd5-g8 g7-g5 f5xg6 Bc7-b6 Bg8xc4 03:42 196695 197k 0 0 43693878 (2) 16 (3835,19815) 2.615 Kg1-f1 Rb7-b8 Ra8-a6 Qb 6xc6 d5xc6 Rb8-c8 Ra6-a5 Kf7-f8 Ra5xb5 Kf8-e7 Be4-d5 Rc8-b8 Rb5xb8 Bd6xb8 c6-c7 Bb8xc7 Bd5-g8 g7-g5 f5xg6 Bc7-b6 Bg8xc4 09:55 191170 191k 0 0 113746222 (2) 17 (8722,41288) 1.965 Kg1-f1 Rb7-b8 Ra8-a6 Q b6-e3 Qc6-d7 Kf7-g8 Qd7xd6 Rb8-f8 Qd6-e6 Kg8-h8 Be4-f3 Qe3xc3 Qe6-e7 Rf8-g8 Qe7- c5 Qc3-d3 Kf1-g1 Qd3xf5 d5-d6 Qf5-g5 ++ g1-h1 16:12 198065 198k 0 0 192543255 (2) 17 (10061,48543) 2.399 Kg1-h1 Rb7-b8 Ra8-a6 Qb6xc6 d5xc6 Kf7-f8 Ra6-a7 Rb8-c8 Ra7-b7 h6-h5 Rb7xb5 Kf8-e7 Be4-d5 h5-h4 Rb5-b7 Rc8-c7 b4-b5 Rc7xb7 c6xb7 Bd6-b8 g2-g4 h4xg3 Bd5-g8 Bb8-a7 I'm outsearching deep blue everywhere here. Note that it is interesting to see how important a few extra moves sometimes are. In this case my selective search. It used to find Kh1 way sooner because it found it at depth 14 or 15. So within the 3 minutes. Now it needs 17 ply. That's bad. But it is because i restricted conditions for DIEP's 7 ply selective search (between main search and quiescencesearch). >And you are right, of course. There are details they have not completely >revealed about >whatever forward pruning they did to reach that BF... their overall b.f. as we can see is very poor. 126 million . 10% effective . 180 seconds = 2.3 billion nodes ==> 12th root from 2.3 B = 6.0 >> >> >> >>> >>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>reporting a 12.2 average search depth fullwidth. >>>>>>>>>I guess you never searched with a decent program fullwidth >>>>>>>>>with extensions. If you did, you would understand that >>>>>>>>>getting 12.2 ply fullwidth with loads of extensions is already nearly >>>>>>>>>impossible. Every extended line is searched to the full depth, >>>>>>>>>no pruning happens! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I agree that 12.2 plies with a lot of extensions and no pruning is impossible >>>>>>>>for normal programs and also is impossible for deep blue in case that >>>>>>>>there were real 6 more plies in the hardware. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>The only case when it may be possible is if the 6 more plies in the hardware are >>>>>>>>real selective search and it means more pruning than null move with R=3 and in >>>>>>>>this case the 6 plies in the hardware may be eqvivalent to only 2 plies in >>>>>>>>software because of big probability to miss things. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>The interesting 2 questions are >>>>>>>>> a) did DB use 'no-progress pruning' in SOFTWARE (we know >>>>>>>>> already it used it in hardware). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>They explained in the article that they did not want to take risks of missing >>>>>>>>something in the first plies so it is clear that they did no pruning in the >>>>>>>>first 12 plies. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>If they did some pruning in the software it is clearly after it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I do not know what is exactly no progress pruning. >>>>>>>>Is there a difference between it and null move pruning? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Is no progress pruning more aggresive than null move pruning? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Uri
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