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Subject: Re: "Deep Blue ..." in 1995

Author: Vincent Diepeveen

Date: 08:33:30 10/14/02

Go up one level in this thread


On October 14, 2002 at 11:22:18, Uri Blass wrote:

You can do whatever theoretical math Uri,

but i have seen diep crush nimzo98 with 10-0 too.

Book, middlegame, endgame.

Now suppose you have a new version of a program at also
superb hardware.

300 points is not true then. It's annihilation.

The rating system does not work for computerchess simply. Period.

>On October 14, 2002 at 09:53:16, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>
>>On October 14, 2002 at 07:43:32, Harald Faber wrote:
>>
>>>On October 14, 2002 at 04:04:30, Ingo Althofer wrote:
>>>
>>>>In the log-files of the ICC hour with Feng Hsiung Hsu
>>>>the following passages can be found:
>>>>
>>>>> EeEk(* DM) kibitzes: I heard that Fritz did
>>>>> play a match against Deep Blue in Hong Kong
>>>>> 1995,according to one of the Fritz programmers,
>>>>> is this not true?
>>>>> CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes:
>>>>> false advertisement. deep blue does not exist
>>>>> until 1996. the new chip was not completed
>>>>> until january 1996...
>>>>>
>>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>> EeEk(* DM) kibitzes: question from oddg: Back to
>>>>> the WC 1995, There was an entry with the name
>>>>> Deep Blue (Fritz won against DB), did it not have
>>>>> any relations to your Deep Blue? (EeEk: any idea
>>>>> how Deep Blue's name got in there, is this
>>>>> completely false?)
>>>>> CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: deep blue did not play in
>>>>> 1995, since it did not exist yet.
>>>>> it was just deliberate relabeling on the part of
>>>>> commercial vendors, for obvious reasons.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I had a look back into the June 1995 issue of the
>>>>ICCA Journal and found the following data which
>>>>might clearify things:
>>>>
>>>>* On p.97ff the contestants of the Hong Kong World
>>>>Championship are described. One of them is
>>>>"Deep Blue Prototype   by Feng-Hsiung Hsu, ..."
>>>>
>>>>* On p.102 the Final Standings are given, with
>>>>"Pos.3  DEEP BLUE   USA  ...."
>>>>
>>>>* On p.130 of the same issue there is an announcement:
>>>>   "The ACM Chess Challenge
>>>>   World Champon Kasparov to play IBM's DEEP BLUE"
>>>>In this announcement it reads
>>>>"DEEP BLUE is being developed at the IBM ... by
>>>>Feng-Hsiung Hsu, Murray Campbell and Joe Hoane,
>>>>under the supervision of Chung-Jen Tan. An earlier
>>>>version of the system won the 1994 ACM International
>>>>Computer Chess Championship at Cape May, New Jersey."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>So, the name "Deep Blue (Prototype)" was not a
>>>>"deliberate relabeling on the part of commercial
>>>>vendors" but the official name in 1995.
>>>>
>>>>Ingo Althofer.
>>>
>>>
>>>Hsu... well... he wouldn't be a friend of mine. Everything he says seems to be
>>>doubtful. DB Jr. 10-0 vs. other commercials where NOONE ever has seen the games
>>>except... guess who... yes, Hsu. Now denying the loss in 1995, of course it was
>>>"just a prototype absolutely not comparable with real DB". Nonsense. And
>>>honestly speaking, I do not believe 50% of what he says or writes. It is all
>>>about things noone else has ever seen, proven or whatever.
>>
>>First of all i find Hsu has a lot of guts to do these talks.
>>
>>SEcondly i do believe the 10-0. Programs around 1997 were world champion
>>giving away material. Rebel searches very dubiously. It is a preprocessor.
>>It has some knowledge. The 1997 versions had huge mobility problems.
>>
>>Later Ed fixed this to some extend (not much, it still is its weakness).
>>
>>Rebel always lacked knowledge, though Ed claims from not.
>>
>>Ed is a nice guy but he doesn't play chess very well. He has no rating.
>>Even if it was 2000 rated it woudl be like god in his eyes.
>>
>>The objective truth about programs from 1997 is that they suck ass
>>compared to 2002 standards. Games were decided by blunders.
>
>They are weaker than the programs of 2002 but the result is not something that
>is close to 10-0.
>
>Based on chessfun's rating list the gap between Junior4.6 and Tiger15 is less
>than 300 elo and it means more than 10% for Junior4.6
>
>>
>>Rebel searched in 1997 in a very dubious way. He had to. There were
>>no alternatives. What i did, getting 7 to 8 ply at 2 minutes a move at
>>a 300Mhz PII, this was no option to Ed.
>>
>>Instead Ed did some dubious things and got like 8 to 10 ply at 2 minutes
>>a move.
>>
>>In rapid this means about 8 ply.
>>
>>Now we take deep blue junior. Even a single chip. I do not believe they
>>had clocked it lower. That it ran at 1/3 clock speed is utter nonsense
>>of course.
>>
>>It ran at full speed of course and they tested of course with deep blue
>>junior. I do not believe the single cpu versus single cpu story.
>>
>>Let's assume it was deep blue junior. It gets 10 ply fullwidth against
>>8 ply dubious fullwidth.
>>
>>That's 1-0 simply.
>
>Really?
>
>Here are some examples from the nunn match between Deep Fritz6 and Tiger14
>10 plies of tiger are more than 8 plies of Fritz but I can also gives examples
>when tiger had 2 plies advantages and Fritz won(see the end of this post)
>
>2 plies advantage win most of the games but in most of the cases I do not expect
>10-0 result.
>
>
>Chess Tiger 14.0 - Deep Fritz [A77]
>pIII450, 10ply/8ply tel-aviv (4), 14.05.2001
>
>W=8.2 ply; 110kN/s; 2 TBAs
>B=10.5 ply; 343kN/s; 7 TBAs
> 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.d5 exd5 5.cxd5 d6 6.Nf3 g6 7.e4 Bg7 8.Be2 0-0 9.0-0
>Re8 10.Nd2 Nbd7 Both last book move 11.f3  0.18/8  2  Nb6  0.22/10  6  12.Nb3
>0.36/8  1  a5 (Nh5)  0.22/10  21  13.Bg5  0.40/8  1  h6  0.12/10  9  14.Bh4
>0.30/8  0  a4 (g5)  0.00/10  5  15.Nc1 (Nd2)  0.26/8  1  15...a3 (g5)  0.00/10
>10  16.bxa3 (Rb1)  0.28/8  0  16...Rxa3 (g5)  0.28/10  16  17.Nb5  0.24/8  1
>Ra6  0.34/10  7  18.Rb1  0.44/8  1  Nbd7  0.41/10  17  19.Qc2  0.36/8  5  Ne5
>(g5)  0.47/10  14  20.Nd3  0.50/8  1  Nxd3 (g5)  0.50/10  25  21.Bxd3  0.52/8  0
> Qe7 (g5)  0.50/10  22  22.Bc4 (Rb3)  0.80/8  4  22...g5 (Rd8)  0.53/10  13
>23.Be1  0.68/8  1  g4  0.53/10  11  24.Bc3 (Nc3)  0.56/8  2  24...gxf3  0.47/10
>56  25.gxf3 (Rxf3)  0.80/8  2  25...Bh3  0.41/10  15  26.Rfe1 (Rfc1)  0.64/8  3
>26...Nh5 (Nh7)  0.47/10  30  27.Kh1  0.64/8  2  Bxc3  0.53/10  34  28.Qxc3
>0.08/8  2  Qe5 (Kh7)  0.50/10  17  29.Rg1+ (Qe3)  0.69/8  3  29...Kh7  0.37/10
>7  30.Qxe5 (Qb3)  0.84/8  2  30...Rxe5  0.62/10  1  31.a4 (Nc7)  0.72/8  0
>31...Nf4 (Rg5)  0.47/10  2  32.Nc3  0.88/8  0  Ra7  0.62/10  1  33.Rb6  1.40/8
>0  Rg5  0.81/10  2  34.Rxg5  1.14/8  0  hxg5  1.06/10  1  35.Rxd6 (Kg1)  1.34/8
>0  35...Bg2+  0.94/10  2  36.Kg1  0.76/1  0  Bxf3  0.97/10  2  37.Rd7  2.00/8  0
> Kg6  1.59/10  6  38.d6  2.24/8  1  Ra8 (Kf6)  1.81/10  15  39.Bxf7+  3.08/8  1
>Kf6  1.81/10  3  40.Re7  2.78/8  0  g4 (Rd8)  2.09/10  14  41.e5+ (Nd5+)  2.84/8
> 4  41...Kg5  1.56/10  5  42.Re8 (d7)  3.50/8  2  42...Rxe8  1.72/10  2  43.Bxe8
> 2.54/8  0  Ne6  1.72/10  0  44.Bf7  2.36/8  0  Nf8  1.87/10  0  45.e6  2.56/8
>1  Kf6  2.06/10  0  46.d7  2.38/8  0  Ke7  2.25/10  1  47.Kf2  2.28/8  0  Nh7
>(Bc6)  2.50/10  0  48.h3  3.12/8  1  Nf6  2.50/10  0  49.Kg3 (hxg4)  3.26/8  0
>49...b6  2.69/10  1  50.Bg6  3.34/8  0  Nd5 (Kd8)  2.41/10  2  51.hxg4  3.86/8
>0  Nxc3  2.37/10  0  52.Kxf3  3.92/8  0  Nxa4  2.87/10  0  53.g5  5.00/8  0  Nc3
> 3.78/10  0  54.Bd3 (Bf7)  5.82/8  0  54...b5 (Kd8)  6.66/10  0  55.Be4  8.08/8
>0  b4  9.69/10  0  56.g6  9.10/8  0  Nxe4 (Nb5)  9.53/10  0  57.Kxe4  11.88/8  0
> b3 9.75/10  0  1-0
>
>
>Deep Fritz - Chess Tiger 14.0 [B80]
>pIII450, 10ply/8ply tel-aviv (17), 14.05.2001
>
>W=10.5 ply; 328kN/s; 1 TBAs
>B=8.4 ply; 109kN/s
> 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be3 e6 7.f3 b5 8.Qd2 Nbd7 9.g4
>h6 Both last book move 10.a4  0.31/10  19  b4  0.12/8  1  11.Na2  0.00/10  10
>d5  0.28/8  3  12.Nc6 (Nxb4)  -0.37/10  39  12...Qc7  -0.56/8  1  13.exd5
>(Ncxb4)  -0.50/10  35  13...Nxd5  -0.64/8  1  14.Ncxb4  -0.50/10  13  Nxe3
>-0.88/8  1  15.Qxe3  -0.59/10  11  Bb7  -1.22/8  3  16.Be2 (Qe2)  -0.62/10  39
>16...Bd6 (Be7)  -1.40/8  3  17.Qf2 (g5)  -0.84/10  55  17...a5 (0-0)  -1.40/8  8
> 18.Nd3  -0.66/10  9  Qxc2 (Nf6)  -1.20/8  2  19.Qd4  -0.34/10  12  Be7 (Ke7)
>-1.34/8  3  20.Rc1  -0.75/10  19  Qb3  -1.38/8  1  21.Rc7  -0.81/10  45  Bd5
>-1.36/8  2  22.Nc3  -0.62/10  22  Bf6 (Bh4+)  -1.02/8  2  23.Qf4  -0.53/10  29
>Bxc3+ (Rd8)  -0.96/8  6  24.Rxc3 (bxc3)  -0.22/10  5  24...Qb6  -0.48/8  1
>25.h4 (Qc7)  -0.31/10  9  25...0-0 (Rb8)  -0.84/8  3  26.Qc7  -0.28/10  6  Rfc8
>(Rfd8)  -1.10/8  1  27.Qxc8+ (Qxb6)  0.00/10  2  27...Rxc8  -1.54/8  0  28.Rxc8+
> -0.34/10  6  Kh7  -0.96/8  0  29.Rf1 (Rc3)  -0.44/10  13  29...Bc6 (Qd4)
>-0.98/8  2  30.h5 (f4)  -0.44/10  10  30...Qb7  -1.14/8  0  31.Rd8  -0.94/10  2
>Qc7  -2.02/8  0  32.Re8  -1.78/10  8  Nc5 (Nb6)  -2.02/8  0  33.b4 (Rf8)
>-1.78/10  7  33...Bxe8  -2.84/8  1  34.bxc5  -1.84/10  0  Bxa4  -2.62/8  0
>35.Kd2  -1.94/10  2  Bc6 (e5)  -2.64/8  0  36.f4 (Rb1)  -1.84/10  2  36...a4
>-3.52/8  3  37.Ke3 (Bf3)  -1.91/10  3  37...a3  -3.88/8  3  38.Ra1  -2.22/10  16
> Qa5  -4.10/8  1  39.Kd4 (g5)  -3.12/10  15  39...Qd2  -4.26/8  1  40.Bf1
>-4.62/10  1  a2  -6.14/8  0  41.Kc4 (Bh3)  -5.44/10  2  41...Qc2+  -7.42/8  0
>42.Kd4  -5.37/10  0  Qb1  -7.42/8  0  43.Rxa2  -6.12/10  1  Qxa2  -8.06/8  0
>44.Ke3  -6.44/10  0  Kg8  -8.22/8  0  45.Be2  -6.75/10  2  Qd5 (Bb5)  -8.34/8  0
> 46.Kd2  -7.28/10  1  Bb5  -8.58/8  0  47.Ke3  -7.37/10  1  Bxd3  -8.70/8  0
>48.Bxd3 -7.66/10  1  0-1
>
>
>Deep Fritz - Chess Tiger 14.0 [E99]
>pIII450, 3ply/5ply tel-aviv (49), 05.05.2001
>
>W=3.1 ply; 26kN/s
>B=5.2 ply; 99kN/s
> 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Be2 e5 7.0-0 Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.Ne1
>Nd7 10.Nd3 f5 11.Bd2 Nf6 12.f3 f4 Both last book move 13.c5  0.31/3  0  c6
>0.23/5  0  14.dxc6 (Qb3)  0.41/3  0  14...Nxc6 (bxc6)  0.28/5  0  15.Qb3+ (cxd6)
> 0.31/3  0  15...Rf7 (Kh8)  -0.28/5  0  16.Be1 (Qc4)  0.13/3  0  16...Nd4
>-0.34/5  0  17.Qa4 (Qd1)  -0.19/3  0  17...Bd7  -0.54/5  0  18.Qc4 (Qd1)
>-0.28/3  0  18...Nc2 (Be6)  -1.96/5  0  19.Rc1 (Bh4)  -0.94/3  0  19...Ne3
>-2.06/5  0  20.Qb3  -0.94/3  0  Nxf1  -1.86/5  0  21.Bxf1  -0.78/3  0  Bc6
>(dxc5)  -1.62/5  0  22.Qe6 (Bh4)  -0.72/3  0  22...Nd7 (dxc5)  -2.06/5  0
>23.Bf2 (cxd6)  -0.62/3  0  23...Nf8 (dxc5)  -1.90/5  0  24.Qb3 (Qc4)  -0.72/3  0
> 24...a5 (dxc5)  -1.06/5  0  25.Be2 (cxd6)  -0.59/3  0  25...a4 (dxc5)  -1.72/5
>0  26.Qc4 (Qd1)  -0.69/3  0  26...dxc5 (Qf6)  -1.38/5  0  27.Nxc5  -0.50/3  0
>a3  -1.22/5  0  28.Rd1 (bxa3)  -0.66/3  0  28...Qe8  -1.16/5  0  29.b4 (bxa3)
>-0.69/3  0  29...b6  -1.36/5  0  30.b5  -0.59/3  0  bxc5  -1.20/5  0  31.bxc6
>-0.75/3  0  Ne6 (Rc8)  -0.56/5  0  32.Rd6 (Nb5)  -0.03/3  0  32...Nd4  -1.00/5
>0  33.Qd5 (c7)  -0.47/3  0  33...Bf8 (Nxe2+)  -0.64/5  0  34.Rd7  -0.66/3  0
>Qe6 (Nxe2+)  -0.60/5  0  35.Bc4 (Qxe6)  0.50/3  0  35...Rxd7 (Qxd5)  3.70/5  0
>36.cxd7  2.31/3  0  Kg7 (Rd8)  4.54/5  0  37.Qxa8  3.34/3  0  Qxd7  4.94/5  0
>38.Qxa3  3.50/3  0  Be7  4.94/5  0  39.Nd5  3.66/3  0  Bd6 (Qd6)  5.11/5  0
>40.Qd3 (Qa8)  3.78/3  0  40...h6  5.14/5  0  41.Bh4 (Qc3)  4.00/3  0  41...Kf8
>(g5)  4.88/5  0  42.Bf6  4.16/3  0  Qe8 (Qa4)  4.88/5  0  43.Nb6 (a3)  4.19/3  0
> 43...Bc7  4.64/5  0  44.Qb1  3.66/3  0  Bd6 (Bd8)  4.82/5  0  45.a4 (Nd5)
>4.09/3  0  45...Bc7 (Qc6)  5.24/5  0  46.a5  4.00/3  0  Qc6 (Bd8)  5.52/5  0
>47.Nd5  4.38/3  0  Bd6 (Bxa5)  5.92/5  0  48.a6  4.47/3  0  Qa4  6.50/5  0
>49.Qc1 (Nb6)  4.47/3  0  49...Qa5  5.80/5  0  50.Qd1 (Kf2)  4.50/3  0  50...Qa3
>5.62/5  0  51.Qe1 (Nb6)  4.44/3  0  51...Qb2 (Qa4)  5.68/5  0  52.a7 (Kf1)
>4.50/3  0  52...Qa3  6.10/5  0  53.Qh4  4.28/3  0  Qa1+ (Qc1+)  7.00/5  0
>54.Bf1  4.25/3  0  Qxa7 (Kf7)  7.90/5  0  55.Qxh6+  5.00/3  0  Ke8  8.74/5  0
>56.Qh8+  5.53/3  0  Bf8 9.38/5  0  1-0
>
>Uri



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