Author: Uri Blass
Date: 08:34:35 10/17/02
Go up one level in this thread
On October 17, 2002 at 10:41:20, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On October 17, 2002 at 06:13:26, Johan Melin wrote: > >>On October 16, 2002 at 23:35:10, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On October 15, 2002 at 14:01:35, Johan Melin wrote: >>> >>>>On October 14, 2002 at 07:34:16, Bas Hamstra wrote: >>>> >>>>>Bob, did you read the Hsu transcript posted here? It is pretty clear to me that >>>>>Hsu himself says 12 ply fullwidth *total*. Case closed. Please read the complete >>>>>transcript. >>>>> >>>>>Best regards, >>>>>Bas. >>>> >>>>I agree. The transcript with Hsu is clear. But it would be out of character for >>>>CCC if everybody just agreed with each other, there still has to be a fight ... >>>>;) >>>> >>>>/Johan Melin >>> >>> >>>Here is the relevant part of the transcript: >>> >> >>There are other relevant parts? How about: >> >>---------------------------------- >>EeEk(* DM) kibitzes: kib question from ardee: Does "12(6)" mean 12 >>total ply or 12+6=18 total ply? This has the been source of huge >>arguments for years! >>CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: 12 total in terms of brute force. 6 is just >>the max partition in hardware. >>---------------------------------- >> >>He sais 12 _total_. He also refers to 6 as "just", implying that it is less >>important than the 12. > > >No he clearly did _not_ say "12 total". He said "12 plies of brute force". He >also >said elsewhere that the _hardware_ does forward pruning. So "12 plies of brute >force" >implies that is non-hardware... It is not clear from it. suppose the hardware never pruned in the first 3 plies in the hardware when the hardware get depth 6. Suppose also that the software sent the hardware only lines of at least 9 moves. You can have 12 plies of brute force when 6 is the maximal depth in the hardware. > > > >> >>If somebody tells you that "the storage capacity of this harddrive is 20 GB, 5 >>GB is just the linux partition", then what is the storage capacity? 25 GB? > >No. But nobody has said that. they have said "20 gigabytes of space". >The hardware has 5 gigabytes of buffer." Does the thing have 20 gigs or >25 gigs _now_??? From a speed perspective, it matters how that is done. > > >> >>---------------------------------- >>EeEk(* DM) kibitzes: question from parabola444: You mentioned Deep >>Blue searched about 12 plies brute force + extensions, which is >>similar to what pc programs these days get on a fast pc - since Deep >>Blue hardware was much faster, how come it didn't search significantly >>deeper ? >>CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: to all the book readers, if you do like the >>book, please tell your friends would might be interested. thanks. >>CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: replace would with who:). >>CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: we were using fairly extensive search >>extensions, and the decision not to use null move pruning was an >>deliberate one. >>---------------------------------- >> >>The interesting part here is not just what he says, but what he doesn't say. If >>they search 18 plies nominal, he would have said so. Why would he hold back such >>a statement? He indirectly agrees to searching only 12 plies. > >Again, Hsu tries to answer what he is asked, as briefly as possible. The >hardware does >forward pruning. They have _always_ given the "software depth" when they >discuss >this kind of number. Whether he still is is up for debate, but I doubt he would >suddenly >change his terminology after using it for 15 years... > > > > >> >> >>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: 12(6) means 12 plies of brute force (not >>>counting the search extensions & quiescence). >>>CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: 6 means the maximum hardware search depth >>>allowed. >>>CrazyBird(DM) kibitzes: this means that the PV could be up to 6 plies >>>deeper before quiescence. >>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>Note that in the first line he states "not counting ..." but does not mention >>any extra plies from hardware. Wouldn't 6 plies be more significant than >>quiescence? So why doesn't he mention that it isn't included in the 12 plies? >> > >What about the last sentence. It seems to say exactly what you say is missing. > >"up to 6 plies deeper". up to 6 plies deeper relative to the logfile. I do not know if they did extensions in the hardware but even if I assume that they did ply can include also extensions. When people says that the program search 6 plies it includes extensions so it is possible that when 6 plies are missing it includes extensions. > > > > >>> >>>OK, some questions: >>> >>>1. If 12(6) means 12 plies total, with 6 done in hardware, how do you reconcile >>>that >>>_last_ sentence above (the PV could be up to 6 plies _deeper_ before >>>quiescence). >>>Deeper than what? Only possible answer is deeper than 12 plies. >> >>He is talking about the PV. Their hardware return a score, but no PV. So >>sometimes they didn't get a complete PV, and say "the pv COULD BE UP TO ...". > > > >That makes no sense. They don't limit the 12 ply search to 6 plies of >extensions >total. So he is not talking about search extensions. Saying "the PV could >be up >to 6 plies deeper" is _obviously_ not a reference to the missing pv from the >hardware >for many reasons. First, if the hardware is searching 6 plies, the PV would not >be >"up to 6 plies more" it would be "at _least_ 6 plies more because of the >hardware search >extensions + qsearch". > > >> >>> >>>2. If 12(6) means 12 plies total, with 6 in hardware, what does 4(5) mean? 4 >>>plies total >> >>Uri Blass suggests aggresive extensions that increase the remaining depth. > >Again, that makes no sense in this context. It would _instantly_ have to resort >to a >hardware-chip only search if the above means 4 plies brute force, 5 plies of >that done >by hardware. I do not see the problem. It is possible that deeper blue extended 4 plies for the first 3 plies so the first 3 plies were done in the software and the last 5 plies were done in the hardware. plies is used in a different meaning here but the meaning is clear. last 5 plies means depth 5 for the hardware and first 3 plies means first 3 moves. Uri
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