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Subject: Re: Mate in 12 challenge for CHEST

Author: Uri Blass

Date: 14:40:59 10/18/02

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On October 18, 2002 at 17:36:24, F. Huber wrote:

>On October 18, 2002 at 17:09:07, Uri Blass wrote:
>
>>On October 18, 2002 at 17:00:21, F. Huber wrote:
>>
>>>On October 18, 2002 at 15:33:11, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>
>>>>On October 18, 2002 at 14:42:55, Heiner Marxen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On October 17, 2002 at 01:09:45, Jouni Uski wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>And other programs as well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>[D]rnbQKbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBqkBNR w - -
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Alybadix 2002 solves this in unbelievable 21,3 sec (Athlon 1466 Mhz). Look at
>>>>>>http://www.saunalahti.fi/~iblom/alybadix/ex2002.htm
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Jouni
>>>>>>
>>>>>>PS. Solution of course Nc3!
>>>>>
>>>>>That is correct.  Chest on Athlon 1500+ with 128 MB hash needs 2 hours:
>>>>>#  5      0.03s [  3.00]        5kN [  4.90]  1.36        337-         0
>>>>>#  6      0.09s [  3.00]       19kN [  3.57]  1.68       1164-         0
>>>>>#  7      0.37s [  4.11]       73kN [  3.89]  1.93       6250-         0
>>>>>#  8      1.92s [  5.19]      386kN [  5.29]  2.32      32241-         0
>>>>>#  9     17.29s [  9.01]     3472kN [  8.98]  2.32     312342-         0
>>>>># 10    110.95s [  6.42]    22525kN [  6.49]  2.53    1893435-     14248
>>>>># 11   1229.78s [ 11.08]   229968kN [ 10.21]  3.04   20799132-  17599899
>>>>># 12   7333.75s [  5.96]  1405765kN [  6.11]  3.05  117945772- 114746539
>>>>>
>>>>>PV: Nc3 Nf6+ Kxf7 Kxf1 Nf3+ Kxg2 Rxd1 Nc6 Rg1+ Kxf2 Nd1+ Kxe2 Nd4+ Nxd4 Qxc7 d6
>>>>>Qc4+ Kf3 Qd3+ Kf4 Qe3+ Kf5 Rg5#
>>>>>
>>>>>I'm not sure whether the comparison with Alybadix is completely fair.
>>>>>On that web page I read (in red) /Q3+ which seems to indicate a search
>>>>>restriction.  Hence I suspect a shorter mate is not absolutely ruled out
>>>>>by Alybadix.
>>>>
>>>>I understood from the site that it means that white has to play only checks or a
>>>>threat of mate in at most 3 moves.
>>>>
>>>>Uri
>>>
>>>And that´s exactly the point! With such restrictions you are able to get
>>>almost _every_ time (you want) on a special problem - but that doesn´t
>>>say _anything_ about the average solving times _without_ giving the program
>>>such additional informations.
>>>And I really would be interested, _who_ would know exactly _this_ restriction
>>>_before_ solving this chess problem? (If knowing the solution before, why
>>>using a mate solver at all ;-))
>>
>>Knowing is impossible but it is possible to guess.
>>I think that having an option to restrict the search is productive.
>>
>>Of course comparing times of it with times of chest is meaningless.
>>
>>Uri
>
>Ok, you´re right with this ´guessing´ and it´s also good for trials,
>but if you do so, you _never_ can be sure to get the shortest mate!
>And exactly _this_ is what I want, if I´m using a matesolver - otherwise
>I could use _every_ good and fast chess engine and would probably also
>get a solution (maybe in even faster time).
>
>Franz.

If you do not look for the shortest mate then using a commercial program is not
always an advantage.

Commercial programs may not care to be fastest in finding mates and prune when
they see that they win a lot of material.

Chessmaster does not do it but it still cannot find very long mates because it's
search is limited.

I believe that part of the positions in the site are not going to be solved by
the commercial programs.

Uri



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