Author: Brian Katz
Date: 20:44:50 10/20/02
Go up one level in this thread
On October 20, 2002 at 20:00:09, Bob Durrett wrote:
>On October 20, 2002 at 19:38:48, Uri Blass wrote:
>
>>On October 20, 2002 at 19:12:39, Bob Durrett wrote:
>>
>>>On October 20, 2002 at 18:33:25, José Carlos wrote:
>>>
>>>>On October 20, 2002 at 18:16:38, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On October 20, 2002 at 17:55:55, Bob Durrett wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Why Fritz and Junior not among Top computers at ICC?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I just looked at "best computers" at the Internet Chess Club [ICC] and noted
>>>>>>that the top blitz programs are NOT Fritz and Junior.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>{{Note: at ICC, "best" is a command.}}
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Why is that? Maybe Kramnik was playing against the wrong engine?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Bob D.
>>>>>
>>>>>ICC rating is a joke.
>>>>>
>>>>>People can maximize their rating by having a list of
>>>>>players that they do not to play.
>>>>>
>>>>>I think that it is better to ignore that rating because
>>>>>it has no meaning.
>>>>>
>>>>>Rating should be based on tournament when players have
>>>>>no right not to play against special opponents.
>>>>>
>>>>>Players who choose not to play against special
>>>>>opponents should get no rating.
>>>>>
>>>>>Another point is that the time control for blitz is not
>>>>>constant time control and it can be 3 0 or 12 2.
>>>>>
>>>>>I think that all games should be played at
>>>>>the same time control to have rating with meaning.
>>>>
>>>> ICC rating is not totally meaningless. It depends on what you want to know. I
>>>>mean, if I usually play the same time controls and a variety of opponents, I can
>>>>test my program with two different books and see which one works better. In that
>>>>case, ICC rating is useful _to me_.
>>>> But I agree is doesn't always show which player is stronger because of the
>>>>reasons you mentioned.
>>>>
>>>> José C.
>>>
>>>OK, so some manipulation is possible. People who used Fritz or Junior could do
>>>the same thing!
>>>
>>>What strikes me is that Fritz and Junior seem to be missing entirely!
>>>
>>>Do you suppose somebody has talked the ICC management into boycotting Fritz and
>>>Junior?
>>>
>>>Joke or not, I think it's very strange that Fritz and Junior cannot compete in
>>>that arena. They could play by the same rules as the others, too!
>>>
>>>Bob D.
>>
>>They could do it but what is the reason to do it.
>>
>>Why should I use a program that is not mine
>>to compete in ICC?
>>
>>I see no reason to do it.
>>
>>I also think that it is better not to learn
>>from blitz games about the best program to play
>>against kramnik at 120/40 that is a different time
>>control.
>>
>>I believe that a big anti simmetric evaluation that
>>is used by crafty may be a big advantage at blitz but
>>a disadvantage at 120/40(even standard time control
>>is not 120/40).
>>
>>The point is that at long time control playing
>>relatively weaker moves only to keep the position open
>>may be punished by humans and programs that try to play
>>also closed positions may do better.
>>
>>Uri
>
>You make a good point there. The program(s) best against humans at Blitz may
>not be the same programs which are best at different time controls. That makes
>sense to me.
>
>The problem I have with ICC "standard" time limits is that the humans would have
>time to help the computers. If the computer played Bf8, for example, the human
>might intervene and force the computer to chose the next best move. This
>assumes a bit, I realize. The human might have to be a GM. Nevertheless, this
>could be done regardless of the choice of the chess engine.
>
>To be fair, it is noteworthy that the top computer at ICC at "standard" time
>limit is Deep Fritz 7 on a dual processor computer.
>
>Yes, Fritz is doing well at "standard" time limits at ICC.
>
>Maybe we can disregard Blitz entirely.
>
>Bob D.
I have been using Fritz engines on my ICC computer account for about a year or
two now under the name Deep-Katzparov, against mostly Human opposition, at game
5/12. Only a handful of Standard games were played. The bullet games were with
Crafty 18.14 with Winboard automatically running the program.
Check out the record it has obtained. With Fritz 6e it got an approx. 198 wins
10 losses and ? draws Fritz 7's obtained approx. another 200 wins and 20 losses
and ? draws, then Deep-Fritz 7 played the remaining games and won 28 lost 5
games and ? draws.
I should point out that Fritz 7 played the last 4 or5 games which were wins. I
firmly believe that Fritz 7 performs better on a single processor then
Deep-Fritz 7 does.
I am only using a 350 MHz Pent II and look at the record it obtained.
Grandmaster Mark Hebdon was among the opponents who got crushed.
Approximately 20 of the losses were against other programs, with many wins in
there as well I might add.
Information about Deep-Katzparov(C) (Last disconnected Fri Oct 18 2002 14:11):
rating [need] win loss draw total best
Bullet 2419 [8] 36 6 2 44 2441 (19-Aug-2002)
Blitz 2815 426 33 43 502 2958 (31-Jan-2002)
Standard 2497 [6] 10 0 3 13
What kind of a record will I ( Fritz (forgive me) )achieve when I begin using an
AMD Athlon 2.0 gig 2400+ ? or 2600+ or 2700+, which I play on purchasing as soon
as possible?
Considering the fact that I am only using a 350MHz with Fritz engines, to me
shows that Fritz performs quite well.
No one knows just how many players are using Fritz or Junior or Tiger or
Shredder or whatever, without showing the engine they are using. You may have
Chessbase people using thier Fritz engines on ICC under WHATEVER SIGNON WITHOUT
SHOWING PLAYER INFORMATION. Also, the hardware programs use on ICC games may
never be known if the information is not shared.
To make a long story short........Most of us will never know just what programs
are on top and why.
Fritz may very well be at the top of the list.
Brian Katz
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