Author: Uri Blass
Date: 16:14:03 10/21/02
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On October 21, 2002 at 18:10:20, Jesper Antonsson wrote: >On October 19, 2002 at 18:16:17, Uri Blass wrote: >>On October 19, 2002 at 17:59:05, Jesper Antonsson wrote: > >>>Why? If they reached 12 true plies (without nullmove) and did more extensions on >>>top of that, why do you "strongly believe" that that was not "more" than Fritz's >>>14 pruned plies? >> >>I believe based on analysis of the games. >> >>I found that Fritz on p800 was only slightly slower in seeing the same line >>relative to deeper blue in few cases. > >All the time? There are few games and perhaps the positions were such that DBs >superior positional and tactical strength didn't show that much. > >>Hsu also did not claim that they did 126M effective nodes. >> >>He said that the estimate for the real number of nodes(not efective nodes is >>200M and with all their problem of parralel search and hardware it is logical to >>assume that the eqvivalent number of nodes on a single machine is a lot more >>than 2 times lower. > >Half of 200M is 100M. Still more than SMP micros. And I don't think he threw his >NPS at nothing. These are smart guys. 1)I said more than 2 times slower. I did not say 2 times slower. 2)I did not say that Hsu was stupid. He had simply less experience than the programmer of today and he had not enough time to test things. There was a lot of progress since 1997. The software of today is more than 200 elo better than the software of 1997 and maybe even more than 300 elo better(I am not sure about the level of Fritz8). Deep Fritz7 beated Gromit convincingly in the ssdf games inspite of having K6-450 against A1200 and I believe that Gromit is not weaker and maybe stronger than the best programs of 1997. 3)I think that all the programmers throw their nps at nothing and there are better algorithms that are not used today. > >> And remember that DBs eval was much better than Fritz's. (I >>>know you won't agree, but I believe Hsu here, because I know the DB team was >>>smart and because Hsu in a better position to know than you are.) >> >>Hsu knows nothing about the evaluation of Fritz > >How do you know? He did not write the program and he has not the program. From the interview, it seemed he has followed the DF-Kramnik >match, and he mentioned the positional superiority of a dumbed down DB Junior >that recognised worthless open rook files and so on. He mentioned superiority against old programs and not against Fritz8. > Does Fritz handle the >things he mentioned well? > >>and it make sense to believe >>that Fritz's evaluation is better because Fritz had more time to test their >>evaluation. > >That's just one factor. When some PhDs collaborate with GMs and devote a year to >fine tuning the eval of DB, using some clever tools they devised earlier, such >as automatic tuning, it can become very good. The best programmers are not GM's. I do not think that GM's know what they know and I do not think that the deep blue team found a way to tune deep blue's evaluation in a succesful way. I do not say that automatic tuning cannot work but we had no proof that the automatic tuning that is used is better than tuning by hand. Also, something that has been >reiterated again and again, they had the possibility to do things in hardware >for free, things that are too costly for software implementation. They could >implement such very complex eval terms in hardware, and if they were properly >parameterized, they could then spend considerable time tuning it. > >I obviously can't be sure that it was(is) superior, but I'm firmly convinced >that it could have been made superior, and think Hsu et al were smart enough to >do it. > >/Jesper I do not care about what it could have been made. The competition is not a fair competition so maybe it is better that they are out of chess so we can enjoy a more fair competition between programmers. I do not see the challange in winning when you have hardware advantage. I think that it is a bigger challange to try to win with equal hardware or inferior hardware. Uri
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