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Subject: Re: RE-INSTATE SEAN evans

Author: Don Dailey

Date: 10:01:02 09/07/98

Go up one level in this thread


On September 07, 1998 at 03:07:57, Ed Schröder wrote:

>>>I just want to empasize one point; Bye and large, I agree that in this CCC,
>>>moderation is useful and even desirable.  I really have little problem with
>>who
>>>has been thrown out or reasons they are not allowed back in.  But I do feel
>>that
>>>the methodolgy used may not be the best, and is why I suggested the 1
>>month, 3
>>>month and 1 year suspension concept, in order to reduce, but not entirely
>>>'delete' poor behaver and posting.
>>
>>Indeed, the methodology we use may not be the very best possible one.
>>
>>
>>>Yes, I know its risky letting more 'noise' back into this forum, but it also
>>>creates a system that is more free to disidant viewpoints within reason.
>>(Sean
>>>Evans or insert name...), should not have to apologise to anyone using this
>>>system, even if they are entirely wrong. The suspension itself, creates the
>>>apology. Besides, it always requires at least a little analysis to
>>determin to
>>>what degree they are wrong.
>>>
>>>I think the present system whereby the moderaters decide that they will ban
>>>offending posters, while easier to enact and maintain,
>>
>>HOLD IT.  Which system is easier to enact and maintain?  Automatic
>>reinstatement is a no-brainer, you just put them back on the group
>>with no consideration of circumstances or anything whatsoever.  With
>>our method we have to actually consider how people feel and interact
>>with them and think about the issues.  It's HARDER to implement our
>>system by far, but it is far more flexible and human.
>>
>>
>>>                                                   creates the impression
>>>that they themselves will ban whoever they don't like for good, and that if
>>they
>>>want back 'in', they have to come with their figurative tail between their
>>legs
>>>- and that hardly encourages people to comunicate itelligently.
>>
>>I think you said more in this single sentence than all the others
>>combined because now I know what is bothering you, everything else
>>was very abstract.  You may have been offended by the idea that we
>>expect someone to show some regret for awful behavior and perhaps
>>you think this is unfair to them or arrogant of us.  Is this the
>>case?
>>
>>Maybe an example will help you understand how I'm looking at this
>>thing, you do not have to agree, but please listen.
>>
>>Suppose I come over to your home and start insulting your family
>>and friends.  Which policy will you implement concerning the
>>possibility of my comming back?   I would expect you to ask me
>>to leave and never come back.  If I really wanted to come back
>>and wanted to convince you of this I would come to you and
>>give you my best apology and hope you were forgiving enough
>>to invite me back.
>>
>
>>Maybe this is not quite the same thing, but I think the principles
>>are pretty much the same.  Since it is less personal than
>>family and home, we are not expecting a tearful apology.  But
>>I think we have a right (as a group) to expect better behavior
>>from any reinstated member and a simple statement of this from
>>someone is probably all they would need to get back on the group
>>as long as we believed it.  Do you think this is far too much
>>to ask of someone?
>>
>>You said that we give off the impression that we might ban
>>someone for good just because we don't like them.  I don't
>>know how to answer that one except to reassure you that we
>>would not do this.  I don't know Bruce and Amir very well
>>yet, but already I believe they are very fair in these matters.
>>I am not a vendetta kind of person either but you wouldn't know
>>that until you got to know me.   Remember that there are 3 of
>>us, 3 is better than 1 and 3 will temper the decisions of any
>>one.
>>
>>Having said all of that, I do not claim that what we do is better
>>than what you propose.  But now  I at least understand what your
>>concerns are.  I hope I have addressed them to your satisfaction.
>>
>>
>>
>>- Don
>
>
>
>My 2 cents. When somebody robs a bank he is put in jail. When he after
>some years is released there is no obligation for him to apology for the
>damage he has done to enter society again. For that he was put in jail.
>
>When out of jail the person gets a new chance and it's up to him to do
>better or to spoil it again.
>
>Why not copy this rule for CCC too? I mean it is a standard rule in every
>civilized country and the whole world since its existence (till now) wasn't
>able to come up with something better :)
>
>Measures could be:
>- Warning (email only)
>- Yellow card (email only), 2 yellow cards = Red card (1)
>- Red card (1), banned from CCC for (?) months.
>- Red card (2), banned from CCC for life.
>
>I have no idea if it is wise to make "red cards" public. It maybe depends on the
>case and what has happened. All I want to say on this is that when people get
>a warning or a yellow card they (right or wrong) feel humiliated and putting it
>into public will make that 10 times worse. So I think email is the best way.
>
>If you have such a set of rules (not necessarily the above ones of course) then
>we can stop having this kind of discussions.
>
>In this respect there is almost no risk to invite banned people back in CCC. I
>mean they already have red card (1). As in real life everybody deserves a
>second chance. It's then up to them to spoil it again or not.
>
>For what it is worth.
>
>- Ed -



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