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Subject: Re: The difference between label and content (Larsen and ChessBase)

Author: martin fierz

Date: 16:01:56 10/25/02

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On October 25, 2002 at 07:02:38, Rolf Tueschen wrote:

>On October 25, 2002 at 00:14:34, martin fierz wrote:
>
>>On October 24, 2002 at 21:18:52, Rolf Tueschen wrote:
>>
>>>On October 24, 2002 at 17:33:05, martin fierz wrote:
>>>
>>>>On October 24, 2002 at 09:12:50, Russell Reagan wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On October 24, 2002 at 08:05:41, Jouni Uski wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>I mean which result would be DEFINITE/FINAL/LAST etc. indicator, that computer
>>>>>>is better than best human in chess.
>>>>>>10-0? 20-0? 40-0? And may be human mated in under 30 moves in each game? Should
>>>>>>be quite clear then for most, if not for all.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Jouni
>>>>>
>>>>>Why do you ask? No human world champion calibre player has ever lost 10-0, or
>>>>>even come close to losing 10-0, much less 20-0 or 40-0, so what's the point of
>>>>>even asking?
>>>>
>>>>umm, you are young my friend :-)
>>>>too young to remember the candidate's matches which the one and only bobby
>>>>played and won 6-0, against players who were also "candidates", meaning world
>>>>champion calibre players.
>>>
>>>Just a short correction without entering the thread. You are making the same
>>>mistake, Ingo Althöfer made.
>>
>>i beg your pardon??
>>ingo calls deep thought 2 deep blue because IBM insisted on renaming it. when it
>>is completely clear that it is the same machine which was called deep thought 2,
>>and far from anything deep blue / DB2 were later... i totally agree with you
>>that ingo's take on this is absurd. but:
>>
>>>You identify label and real content. Larsen or
>>>Taimanov never were "world champion calibre".
>>this is just a question of definition. how elitist do you want to be in your
>>definition? you seem to be thinking:
>>"world champion calibre" <=> is or was world champion once
>>
>>i think:
>>"world champion calibre" <=> is "relatively close" to the world championship.
>>larsen made it to the candidate's semifinal. taimanov to the quarterfinals. both
>>were top ten players in 1971, larsen even world number 3 for the whole of
>>1970...
>>
>>http://www.chessmetrics.com/PL/PL39950.htm
>>http://www.chessmetrics.com/PL/PL22334.htm
>>
>>for me, that is definitely good enough to be called "world champion calibre".
>>if you want a more strict definition of the term, fine. but you cannot force me
>>to adopt your definition :-)
>>
>>aloha
>>  martin
>
>Perhaps this helps. Larsen is a good and easy example. But don't shoot me I'm
>just the reporter!

i must admit that i do not know too much about these "old" players myself, being
"only" 31. i will agree with you though that larsen probably never could have
made it to world champion. but i will still call him world champion calibre
because he made it to the top 3.
anyway, the question of russell was more about the likelihood of a x-0 score in
a match ever happening. and if it can happen to the world number 3, then it can
happen to the number 1 to IMO. obviously fischer was much better (as is clearly
witnessed by his 6-0 wipeout), but nobody would ever have epxected this kind of
result beforehand, just as russell does not expect it ever to happen. but it has
happened, and it can happen again :-)

>There must be somewhere a standard or base from where it's judged what
>is really going on beyond all cheats and impostering. Therefore I want
>to thank you for your confirmation about Althöfer where you took great
>risks in saying the truth.
i have never been interested in titles or labels as you call them. if somebody
says something wrong i don't have a problem pointing it out :-)
besides, i honestly don't see where i take a risk in saying what i said.

aloha
  martin



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