Author: Don Dailey
Date: 14:34:56 09/08/98
Go up one level in this thread
On September 08, 1998 at 13:19:24, Moritz Berger wrote: >On September 08, 1998 at 12:24:07, Don Dailey wrote: > >>I think it is still fundamentally superior to the other programs. It >>may not actually be the very strongest currently, but this may be because >>Richard has not made any substantial effort to stay ahead and I also >>don't think the book is engineered as well as the top contenders, which >>could be a big part of the reason his program is not dominant right >>at the moment. >> >>- Don > >I challenge your reasoning above because several facts seem to contradict your >statement about the book being to blame at large for Genius not being >"dominant": > >(1) #1 at the SSDF is still Fritz 5, which uses a GM database without *any* >modifications or tuning (PowerBook). So your statement about "book is [not] >engineered as well as the top contenders", given the lack of engineering in >Fritz' case, seems funny to me. > >(2) Genius 3 had one of the best opening books of its time. Do you think that >Richard Lang (or Ossi Weiner or whoever) replaced it with something inferior? >Why should they do this? > >(3) Try it out yourself: Using the G3 or G5 or Genius tournament book (the >infamous 1.c4-only book) doesn't have any measurable effect on results vs. other >programs or humans (i.e. all books I mentioned fit Genius' style equally well). > >(4) Test suites don't have Genius at the top, in fact it fails in some positions >that all other contemporary 2500+ SSDF programs solve in a couple of minutes. > >(5) "Dominant" means at the very least 50 ELO, more likely 100 ELO points >stronger. Hiarcs 7, Rebel 10, Junior 5, Fritz 5 score (or will score with high >probability) about 50-100 ELO better than Genius 5 at the SSDF (and probably >anywhere else, for that matter). > >For Genius to become "dominant" at some other "moment" in time, it would need to >gain a minimum of 150+ rating points with the next release, something which >seems slightly unlikely given the historically small improvements e.g. from >Genius 2 to Genius 5. > >Also, the reign of Genius already ended 5 years ago with the advent of Hiarcs 3 >and Rebel 6. The era of dominance was most significant with dedicated Mephisto >machines and maybe the very first Genius releases for the PC (1 and 2), but >after that true improvements happened elsewhere, IMHO. > > >Moritz Hi Moritz, Thank you for challenging me on this one. I admit a lot of this was simply my own subjective impression and also a lot of speculation. I agree that at one time Genius opening book was quite good. I currently believe it to be less so, not because they degraded it but because others have caught up and surpassed. I think this explains some of the strength difference but I admit I could be wrong, what I said was speculation on my part. Call me superstitious, but I don't trust ratings at the very top end and at the very low end of any given rating pool. Based on many studies I have personally done with various versions of my own program sometimes combined with other programs, the phenomenon I always see is the the top rated guy is significantly overrated. The rating of this guy will always drop (when using some intermediate level to standardize against) when stronger individuals are added to the top and they in turn will become overrated. I believe this phenomenon exists in the SSDF and any other rating list you present to me. Fritz may be strongest but I'll bet it's not by the margin it appears to be by the numbers. Therefore, I strongly suspect that not so much difference exists between Genius and the top guy. But I did admit Genius is currently not the very best which is in harmony with your assertion. I still stand by my statement that Richard has made no effort to stay ahead of the rest. His program at one time was so far ahead of the pack that he never needed to worry about this, but he does now, only I don't know if he cares much any more. - Don
This page took 0 seconds to execute
Last modified: Thu, 15 Apr 21 08:11:13 -0700
Current Computer Chess Club Forums at Talkchess. This site by Sean Mintz.