Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 11:51:50 11/06/02
Go up one level in this thread
On November 06, 2002 at 13:58:24, martin fierz wrote: >On November 06, 2002 at 11:15:43, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On November 06, 2002 at 03:43:58, martin fierz wrote: >> >>>On November 06, 2002 at 00:02:57, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On November 05, 2002 at 14:17:55, martin fierz wrote: >>>> >>>>>On November 05, 2002 at 01:18:07, Jouni Uski wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>There is interesting and quite long analysis about game 2. which Kramnik won. >>>>>>They claim, that after whites 35. Rc5, there is no need for black to lose: >>>>>> >>>>>>[D]r7/3k1ppp/8/p1R1p3/Pp2P3/5PP1/1P5P/4K3 b - - >>>>>> >>>>>>According to analysis 35.-Rc8 draws! Really? >>>>> >>>>>Rc8 is obviously the best move in this position. shortly after the game i posted >>>>>this position asking if any program can find this move - only bob answered >>>>>saying that if a position is lost it doesnt matter what move you make (hmm, >>>>>sounds rather stupid to me...). >>>> >>>> >>>>Sorry to sound "stupid" but my point was that trying to find a "good" move >>>>after the game is lost is not very interesting. Much better to try to find >>>>a good move _prior_ to things going south. >>>> >>>>Rc8 might be good enough to draw. I'm not so sure being a pawn down with an >>>>active rook is that great if your opponent has a rook that is causing problems >>>>as well. I would rather try to find something _earlier_ in the game... >>> >>>that still sounds a bit stupid to me :-) every chess player gets into positions >>>where he wishes he had done something different earlier in the game. but then >>>the right reaction is not to kick yourself for the earlier mistake, but instead >>>to fight as well as you still can and make things hard for your opponent. >>> >>>you can also just see it as a test position which has no reference to what >>>happened earlier in the game. black to move and fight for the draw! the >>>discussion then was whether kramnik was playing specifically anti-fritz or not, >>>i.e. whether it was really such a big help that he got the *exact* copy before >>>the match. i still dont't think so, and this position is one of the reasons. >>>which computer will play Rc8 here? my guess: not one. which means that kramnik's >>>strategy (as seen in games 1-4, but no more later) would have worked against >>>most other computers too... >>> >>>aloha >>> martin >> >> >>I suspect it _would_ have worked. I'm not particularly worried by this >>position, because >>it requires dumping a pawn for a little activity, which is not going to be easy >>to implement. > >this is really a standard idea in rook endings. it's not like this is a "one in >a million" position... > >>The work spent on getting a program to do that in the right way will be _far_ >>greater than >>the work required to avoid the entire sub-tree earlier in the game, which was my >>point. This >>is about "economy of effort" more than anything else. > >which may be right for this particular game. but rook endings are the most >common endings, and this is a very common theme in rook endings. > >aloha > martin It's a common theme, but it is also very "special-case". For every position where giving up a pawn for activity is right, there are cases where it is also wrong. That's the problem I was talking about. And once you choose to give up the pawn, you are committed, right or wrong. Until then you have options.
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