Author: Uri Blass
Date: 04:39:00 11/15/02
Go up one level in this thread
On November 15, 2002 at 06:30:17, Rolf Tueschen wrote: >Uri, >I hope that you will agree if we make a deeper analysis of the whole complex, >are you game? Thanks, and don't take anything of that too personal. It isn't. >The truth is that I am reflecting such questions since long, and from a science >view I see questions over questions but few answers. > >November 15, 2002 at 01:33:16, Uri Blass wrote: > >>The reason that I say that I believe that the programs of today are better is >>some analysis of the games with the logfiles. > >Ok, that's a good idea. However - > > >> >>The claim that the programs of today are better is not a claim that is only a >>claim of some programmers. > >Who said that? Not programmers but PR spin doctors. Totally different world. > >> >>There are logfiles of the games and in a few cases it is possible to compare >>times that deeper blue needs to see something with time that Deep Fritz need to >>see the same thing. > >You are a bit talking around in approximate terms. What logfiles and where. Why >only in a few cases. That sounds synthetic. Usually you gave much better >evidence. I give here some data. The problem is that in most of the cases there are not similiar lines but in cases that there are similiar lines or similiar fail low it is possible to compare which program does it faster. In order to find more data you need to analyze every position in the logfile when only in part of the cases you may find similiar lines or similiar behaviour because the programs have different evaluation. You can download the logfiles of the games Here are the logfiles of game 1 http://www.research.ibm.com/deepblue/watch/html/game1clean.log Case 1: Deep blue pondered about 40.gxh5 that was not played by kasparov Deep blue failed low again and again -96 T=65 Bf3h5p rf1h1 Kh6g5 rh1g1 Kg5h6 bc3e5N Re8e5b bh3g4 Bh5g6p pf5g6B Kh6g6p bg4d7 Kg6f7 bd7c6P 11(6) #[Bxh5](-116)############################## -116 T=229 Bf3h5p rf1h1 Kh6g5 rh1g1 Kg5h6 pg6g7 Ne5f3 rg1g3 Pc6c5 pb4c5P Rd8c8 pf5f6 Rc8c5p bh3d7 12(6) #[Bxh5](-146)[Bxh5](-146) -146v T=311 Bf3h5p rf1h1 Kh6g5 rh1g1 Kg5h6 pg6g7 Ne5f3 rg1g3 Pc6c5 pb4c5P Rd8c8 pf5f6 Rc8c5p pg7g8/q Re8g8q rg3g8R Rc5c3b rg8h8 12(6) #[Bxh5](-171)# 'rg1' --------------------------------------- --> rf1g1 <-- --------------------------------------- -171 T=538 Bf3h5p rf1h1 Kh6g5 rh1g1 Kg5h6 pg6g7 Ne5f3 rg1g3 Nf3g5 bc3f6 Rd8d2 kf2e1 Rd2e2 ke1f1 Ng5h3b rg3h3N Re2e3n rh3e3R Deep Fritz also fails low again and again after a similiar time with similiar score and it gives the feeling that the programs are of similiar strength. Kasparov,G - Deep Blue 3rr3/8/2p3Pk/1p2nP1P/pP2p3/P1B1Nb1B/2P2K2/5R2 b - - 0 1 Analysis by Deep Fritz: 40...Ne5xg6-- ² (0.59) Depth: 1/3 00:00:00 40...Ne5xg6-- 41.h5xg6 +- (3.56) Depth: 1/4 00:00:00 40...Kh6xh5! +- (3.34) Depth: 1/4 00:00:00 40...Kh6xh5! ² (0.41) Depth: 1/4 00:00:00 40...Kh6xh5 41.Rf1-g1 ² (0.50) Depth: 2/8 00:00:00 40...Kh6xh5 41.Rf1-g1 Kh5-h6 ² (0.50) Depth: 3/11 00:00:00 40...Kh6xh5 41.Rf1-g1 Kh5-h6 42.g6-g7 ² (0.62) Depth: 4/11 00:00:00 1kN 40...Bf3xh5! ² (0.59) Depth: 4/13 00:00:00 2kN 40...Bf3xh5! 41.Bh3-g2 Ne5xg6 42.f5xg6 Kh6xg6 ² (0.34) Depth: 4/16 00:00:00 3kN 40...Bf3xh5 41.Rf1-g1 Ne5xg6 42.f5xg6 Bh5xg6 ² (0.44) Depth: 5/14 00:00:00 7kN 40...Bf3xh5 41.Rf1-g1 Ne5-f3 42.Rg1-g3 Re8-g8 43.Bh3-g2 ² (0.56) Depth: 6/15 00:00:00 14kN 40...Bf3xh5 41.Rf1-g1 Ne5-f3 42.Rg1-g3 Re8-g8 43.Bh3-g2 Rd8-f8 ² (0.62) Depth: 7/19 00:00:00 43kN 40...Bf3xh5 41.Rf1-g1 Ne5-f3 42.Rg1-g3 Re8-g8 43.g6-g7 Kh6-h7 44.f5-f6 ² (0.69) Depth: 8/21 00:00:00 88kN 40...Bf3xh5 41.Rf1-h1 Kh6-g5 42.Rh1-g1+ Kg5-h6 43.g6-g7 Ne5-f3 44.Rg1-g3 Re8-g8 ± (0.72) Depth: 9/24 00:00:00 595kN 40...Bf3xh5-- ± (1.03) Depth: 10/27 00:00:01 995kN 40...Bf3xh5-- ± (1.03) Depth: 10/29 00:00:02 1317kN 40...Bf3xh5 41.Rf1-h1 Kh6-g5 42.Rh1-g1+ Kg5-h6 43.g6-g7 Ne5-f3 44.Ne3-g4+ Bh5xg4 45.Rg1xg4 Kh6-h7 46.Kf2-e3 ± (1.06) Depth: 11/28 00:00:07 4515kN 40...Bf3xh5 41.Rf1-h1 Kh6-g5 42.Rh1-g1+ Kg5-h6 43.g6-g7 Ne5-f3 44.Ne3-g4+ Bh5xg4 45.Rg1xg4 Kh6-h7 46.Kf2-e3 ± (1.06) Depth: 12/29 00:00:12 8140kN 40...Bf3xh5 41.Kf2-g3 Kh6-g5 42.g6-g7 Ne5-f3 43.f5-f6 Bh5-f7 44.Bh3-g4 Nf3-d2 45.Rf1-f5+ Kg5-h6 46.Bc3xd2 ± (1.25) Depth: 13/32 00:00:31 20418kN 40...Bf3xh5 41.Kf2-g3 Kh6-g5 42.g6-g7 Ne5-f3 43.f5-f6 Bh5-f7 44.Bh3-g4 Nf3-d2 45.Rf1-f5+ Kg5-h6 46.Rf5-c5 ± (1.31) Depth: 14/33 00:01:12 47451kN 40...Bf3xh5-- +- (1.62) Depth: 15/37 00:03:08 122687kN 40...Bf3xh5-- +- (1.62) Depth: 15/40 00:04:28 175879kN 40...Bf3xh5 41.Rf1-h1 Kh6-g5 42.Rh1-g1+ Kg5-h6 43.g6-g7 Kh6-h7 44.f5-f6 Ne5-f7 45.Ne3-f5 Rd8-d1 46.Rg1xd1 +- (1.72) Depth: 16/39 00:08:42 345199kN (Blass, Tel-aviv 15.11.2002) case 2: Both Deep Fritz(1000Mhz 64 Mbytes hash) and Deeper blue change their main line from 42...Nxg4+ 43.Rxg4 Kh5 to 42...Nxg4+ 43.Rxg4 Rd5 at similiar time Deep fritz is sligthly faster. Kasparov,G - Deep Blue 3rr3/8/2p3Pk/1p2nP2/pP2p1N1/P1B5/2P2K2/6R1 b - - 0 1 Analysis by Deep Fritz: 42...Ne5xg4+ 43.Rg1xg4 Kh6-h5 44.Rg4-g1 Rd8-d5 45.f5-f6 Rd5-f5+ 46.Kf2-e1 Re8-g8 47.f6-f7 Rg8xg6 48.Rg1-f1 +- (1.53) Depth: 15/34 00:00:45 29095kN 42...Ne5xg4+ 43.Rg1xg4 Rd8-d5 44.f5-f6 Rd5-f5+ 45.Kf2-e2 Re8-g8 46.g6-g7 Kh6-h5 47.Rg4xe4 Kh5-g6 48.Re4-e6 +- (1.50) Depth: 16/36 00:01:56 74709kN (Blass, Tel-aviv 15.11.2002) T=51 Ne5g4n rg1g4N Kh6h5 rg4g1 Re8f8 pf5f6 Rf8g8 pg6g7 Rd8d5 kf2e3 Rd5d7 bc3e5 10(6) #[Nxg4](-129)[Nxg4](-129) -129v T=77 Ne5g4n rg1g4N Kh6h5 rg4g1 Re8f8 pf5f6 Rf8g8 pg6g7 Rd8d5 kf2e3 Rd5f5 ke3e4P 10(6) #[Nxg4](-151)### -151 T=201 Ne5g4n rg1g4N Rd8d5 pf5f6 Rd5f5 kf2e2 Re8g8 pg6g7 Kh6h5 rg4g2 Kh5h6 ke2e3 Rf5f1 ke3e4P Kh6h7 rg2h2 11(6) 'ng4' [cont] -151 T=222 Ne5g4n rg1g4N Rd8d5 pf5f6 Rd5f5 kf2e2 Re8g8 pg6g7 Kh6h5 rg4g2 Rf5f3 bc3b2 Kh5h6 rg2g4 Rf3f5 bb2d4 Pe4e3 ke2e3P Kh6h5 rg4f4 --------------------------------------- case 3: Analysis of the end of game 1 I find near the end of game 1 T=73 Rd5f5 kf2e2 Re8g8 pg6g7 Kh6h5 rg4g1 Rf5f3 bc3b2 Kh5h6 rg1g4 Rf3f5 bb2d4 Pe4e3 ke2e3P Rf5f1 ke3e4 Rf1f6p 11(6) #[Rf5](-260)v[find a move]#########[TIMEOUT][et3 1295 sec]#[Rg8](-183)[Rd1](-180) -180 T=204 Rd5d1 pf6f7 Rd1f1 kf2f1R Kh6h5 pf7e8R/q Kh5g4r --------------------------------------- --> 44. .. Rd1 It is clear that deeper blue failed low after 204 seconds and a bug caused it to play a random move but the fact that it failed low is because of Ke3 that does not appear. Deep Fritz also shows similiar fail low Here is some analysis on 1000Mhz It failed low after similiar time Kasparov,G - Deep Blue 4r3/8/2p2PPk/1p1r4/pP2p1R1/P1B5/2P2K2/8 b - - 0 1 Analysis by Deep Fritz: 44...e4-e3+-- = (0.19) Depth: 1/3 00:00:00 44...e4-e3+-- 45.Kf2-e2 ± (1.22) Depth: 1/5 00:00:00 44...Rd5-d1! ± (1.00) Depth: 1/5 00:00:00 44...Rd5-d1-- ± (1.37) Depth: 2/6 00:00:00 44...Rd5-d1-- ± (1.37) Depth: 2/6 00:00:00 44...Re8-d8! ± (1.28) Depth: 2/7 00:00:00 44...Re8-g8! ± (1.25) Depth: 2/8 00:00:00 44...Re8-g8! 45.g6-g7 ² (0.47) Depth: 2/11 00:00:00 44...Re8-g8 45.g6-g7 Rd5-f5+ 46.Kf2-e2 ± (0.72) Depth: 3/14 00:00:00 44...Re8-g8 45.g6-g7 Rd5-f5+ 46.Kf2-e2 Rf5-f3 ± (0.75) Depth: 4/12 00:00:00 2kN 44...Re8-g8 45.g6-g7 Rd5-f5+ 46.Kf2-e2 Rf5-f3 47.Bc3-d2+ Kh6-h7 ± (0.75) Depth: 5/13 00:00:00 6kN 44...Re8-g8-- ± (1.06) Depth: 6/16 00:00:00 14kN 44...Re8-g8-- 45.g6-g7 Rd5-h5 46.Rg4xe4 Rh5-h2+ 47.Kf2-e3 Rh2xc2 +- (1.53) Depth: 6/17 00:00:00 20kN 44...Rd5-f5+! +- (1.50) Depth: 6/18 00:00:00 36kN 44...e4-e3+! +- (1.47) Depth: 6/18 00:00:00 44kN 44...e4-e3+! 45.Kf2-e2 Rd5-h5 46.g6-g7 Rh5-h2+ 47.Ke2-d3 Re8-d8+ 48.Bc3-d4 e3-e2 ² (0.66) Depth: 6/18 00:00:00 51kN 44...e4-e3+-- ± (0.97) Depth: 7/19 00:00:00 65kN 44...e4-e3+-- 45.Kf2-e2 Rd5-h5 46.g6-g7 Rh5-h2+ 47.Ke2-d3 Re8-d8+ 48.Rg4-d4 Rd8xd4+ 49.Kd3xd4 Kh6-h7 50.Kd4xe3 +- (1.47) Depth: 7/24 00:00:00 85kN 44...Rd5-d8! +- (1.44) Depth: 7/24 00:00:00 146kN 44...Rd5-d8! 45.f6-f7 Re8-f8 46.Kf2-e3 Kh6-h5 47.Rg4-g3 Rd8-d6 ± (1.25) Depth: 7/24 00:00:00 155kN 44...Rd5-d8-- +- (1.56) Depth: 8/15 00:00:00 194kN 44...Rd5-d8-- 45.f6-f7 Re8-f8 46.Kf2-e3 Kh6-h5 47.Rg4-g2 Kh5-h6 48.Ke3xe4 +- (2.56) Depth: 8/18 00:00:00 212kN 44...e4-e3+! +- (2.53) Depth: 8/21 00:00:00 250kN 44...e4-e3+! 45.Kf2-e2 Rd5-f5 46.f6-f7 Rf5-f2+ 47.Ke2-d3 Re8-d8+ 48.Kd3xe3 Rf2xc2 +- (2.03) Depth: 8/23 00:00:00 307kN 44...Rd5-d7! +- (2.00) Depth: 8/23 00:00:00 494kN 44...Rd5-d7! 45.g6-g7 e4-e3+ 46.Kf2-f3 Kh6-h7 47.Rg4-h4+ Kh7-g6 48.Rh4-e4 Re8-g8 49.Kf3xe3 +- (1.94) Depth: 8/23 00:00:00 515kN 44...Re8-d8! +- (1.91) Depth: 8/23 00:00:00 553kN 44...Re8-d8! 45.g6-g7 Kh6-h7 46.Rg4xe4 Rd5-h5 47.Kf2-g3 Kh7-g8 48.Re4-e7 +- (1.87) Depth: 8/23 00:00:00 572kN 44...Re8-g8! +- (1.84) Depth: 8/23 00:00:01 642kN 44...Kh6-h5! +- (1.81) Depth: 8/23 00:00:01 661kN 44...Kh6-h5-- +- (2.12) Depth: 9/22 00:00:01 776kN 44...Kh6-h5-- 45.f6-f7 Re8-f8 46.Kf2-g3 Rd5-d8 47.Bc3-g7 e4-e3 +- (2.50) Depth: 9/22 00:00:01 855kN 44...Re8-g8! +- (2.47) Depth: 9/22 00:00:01 888kN 44...Re8-g8! 45.g6-g7 Rd5-f5+ 46.Kf2-e2 Kh6-h5 47.Rg4xe4 Kh5-g6 48.Re4-e6 c6-c5 49.b4xc5 Rf5xc5 +- (1.91) Depth: 9/22 00:00:01 971kN 44...Re8-g8 45.g6-g7 Rd5-f5+ 46.Kf2-e2 Kh6-h5 47.Rg4xe4 Kh5-g6 48.Re4-e6 c6-c5 49.b4xc5 Rf5xc5 50.Ke2-d3 +- (2.00) Depth: 10/23 00:00:02 1568kN 44...Kh6-h5! +- (1.97) Depth: 10/27 00:00:03 2293kN 44...Kh6-h5! 45.f6-f7 Re8-f8 46.Kf2-g3 Rd5-d8 47.Bc3-g7 Rf8-g8 48.f7xg8Q +- (1.81) Depth: 10/27 00:00:03 2362kN 44...Kh6-h5 45.f6-f7 Re8-f8 46.g6-g7 Rf8xf7+ 47.Kf2-e2 Rd5-d8 48.g7-g8Q Rd8xg8 49.Rg4xg8 Rf7-f3 50.Bc3-b2 +- (1.87) Depth: 11/25 00:00:04 2791kN 44...Kh6-h5-- +- (2.19) Depth: 12/29 00:00:06 4330kN 44...Kh6-h5-- +- (2.19) Depth: 12/29 00:00:06 4582kN 44...Re8-g8! +- (2.16) Depth: 12/29 00:00:07 5091kN 44...Re8-g8! 45.g6-g7 Rd5-f5+ 46.Kf2-e3 Rf5-f3+ 47.Ke3-e2 Kh6-h7 48.Bc3-b2 Rf3-f5 49.Ke2-e3 Rf5-f1 50.Rg4xe4 +- (2.03) Depth: 12/29 00:00:09 6238kN 44...Rd5-f5+! +- (2.00) Depth: 12/31 00:00:15 10217kN 44...Rd5-f5+! 45.Kf2-e2 Re8-g8 46.g6-g7 Kh6-h5 47.Rg4xe4 Kh5-g6 48.Re4-e6 c6-c5 49.Re6-e4 c5xb4 50.Re4xb4 +- (1.50) Depth: 12/31 00:00:16 10831kN 44...Rd5-f5+ 45.Kf2-e2 Re8-g8 46.g6-g7 Kh6-h5 47.Rg4xe4 Kh5-g6 48.Re4-e6 c6-c5 49.Re6-e4 c5xb4 50.Re4xb4 +- (1.50) Depth: 13/29 00:00:19 12786kN 44...Rd5-f5+-- +- (1.81) Depth: 14/31 00:00:27 18278kN 44...Rd5-f5+-- 45.Kf2-e2 Re8-g8 46.g6-g7 Kh6-h5 47.Rg4xe4 Kh5-g6 48.Re4-e6 c6-c5 49.b4xc5 Rf5xc5 50.Ke2-d3 +- (1.84) Depth: 14/35 00:00:45 31295kN 44...Rd5-f5+ 45.Kf2-e2 Re8-g8 46.g6-g7 Kh6-h5 47.Rg4xe4 Kh5-g6 48.Re4-e6 c6-c5 49.b4xc5 Rf5xc5 50.Ke2-d3 +- (1.94) Depth: 15/33 00:01:21 55884kN 44...Rd5-f5+-- +- (2.25) Depth: 16/37 00:03:29 141379kN 44...Rd5-f5+-- 45.Kf2-e3 Rf5-f3+ 46.Ke3-e2 Re8-g8 47.Bc3-d2+ Kh6-h5 48.Rg4-g5+ Kh5-h6 49.f6-f7 Rg8-d8 50.g6-g7 +- (3.06) Depth: 16/37 00:05:42 229369kN 44...Re8-g8! +- (3.03) Depth: 16/37 00:06:04 242531kN (Blass, Tel-aviv 15.11.2002) Uri
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