Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 07:26:03 11/15/02
Go up one level in this thread
On November 15, 2002 at 07:39:00, Uri Blass wrote: >On November 15, 2002 at 06:30:17, Rolf Tueschen wrote: > >>Uri, >>I hope that you will agree if we make a deeper analysis of the whole complex, >>are you game? Thanks, and don't take anything of that too personal. It isn't. >>The truth is that I am reflecting such questions since long, and from a science >>view I see questions over questions but few answers. >> >>November 15, 2002 at 01:33:16, Uri Blass wrote: >> >>>The reason that I say that I believe that the programs of today are better is >>>some analysis of the games with the logfiles. >> >>Ok, that's a good idea. However - >> >> >>> >>>The claim that the programs of today are better is not a claim that is only a >>>claim of some programmers. >> >>Who said that? Not programmers but PR spin doctors. Totally different world. >> >>> >>>There are logfiles of the games and in a few cases it is possible to compare >>>times that deeper blue needs to see something with time that Deep Fritz need to >>>see the same thing. >> >>You are a bit talking around in approximate terms. What logfiles and where. Why >>only in a few cases. That sounds synthetic. Usually you gave much better >>evidence. > >I give here some data. > >The problem is that in most of the cases there are not similiar lines but in >cases that there are similiar lines or similiar fail low it is possible to >compare which program does it faster. > >In order to find more data you need to analyze every position in the logfile >when only in part of the cases you may find similiar lines or similiar behaviour >because the programs have different evaluation. > >You can download the logfiles of the games > >Here are the logfiles of game 1 > >http://www.research.ibm.com/deepblue/watch/html/game1clean.log > >Case 1: >Deep blue pondered about 40.gxh5 that was not played by kasparov >Deep blue failed low again and again > >-96 T=65 Bf3h5p rf1h1 Kh6g5 rh1g1 Kg5h6 bc3e5N Re8e5b bh3g4 Bh5g6p pf5g6B Kh6g6p >bg4d7 Kg6f7 bd7c6P 11(6) #[Bxh5](-116)############################## -116 T=229 >Bf3h5p rf1h1 Kh6g5 rh1g1 Kg5h6 pg6g7 Ne5f3 rg1g3 Pc6c5 pb4c5P Rd8c8 pf5f6 Rc8c5p >bh3d7 12(6) #[Bxh5](-146)[Bxh5](-146) -146v T=311 Bf3h5p rf1h1 Kh6g5 rh1g1 Kg5h6 >pg6g7 Ne5f3 rg1g3 Pc6c5 pb4c5P Rd8c8 pf5f6 Rc8c5p pg7g8/q Re8g8q rg3g8R Rc5c3b >rg8h8 12(6) #[Bxh5](-171)# 'rg1' --------------------------------------- --> >rf1g1 <-- --------------------------------------- -171 T=538 Bf3h5p rf1h1 Kh6g5 >rh1g1 Kg5h6 pg6g7 Ne5f3 rg1g3 Nf3g5 bc3f6 Rd8d2 kf2e1 Rd2e2 ke1f1 Ng5h3b rg3h3N >Re2e3n rh3e3R > > >Deep Fritz also fails low again and again after a similiar time with similiar >score and it gives the feeling that the programs are of similiar strength. > > >Kasparov,G - Deep Blue >3rr3/8/2p3Pk/1p2nP1P/pP2p3/P1B1Nb1B/2P2K2/5R2 b - - 0 1 > >Analysis by Deep Fritz: > >40...Ne5xg6-- > ² (0.59) Depth: 1/3 00:00:00 >40...Ne5xg6-- 41.h5xg6 > +- (3.56) Depth: 1/4 00:00:00 >40...Kh6xh5! > +- (3.34) Depth: 1/4 00:00:00 >40...Kh6xh5! > ² (0.41) Depth: 1/4 00:00:00 >40...Kh6xh5 41.Rf1-g1 > ² (0.50) Depth: 2/8 00:00:00 >40...Kh6xh5 41.Rf1-g1 Kh5-h6 > ² (0.50) Depth: 3/11 00:00:00 >40...Kh6xh5 41.Rf1-g1 Kh5-h6 42.g6-g7 > ² (0.62) Depth: 4/11 00:00:00 1kN >40...Bf3xh5! > ² (0.59) Depth: 4/13 00:00:00 2kN >40...Bf3xh5! 41.Bh3-g2 Ne5xg6 42.f5xg6 Kh6xg6 > ² (0.34) Depth: 4/16 00:00:00 3kN >40...Bf3xh5 41.Rf1-g1 Ne5xg6 42.f5xg6 Bh5xg6 > ² (0.44) Depth: 5/14 00:00:00 7kN >40...Bf3xh5 41.Rf1-g1 Ne5-f3 42.Rg1-g3 Re8-g8 43.Bh3-g2 > ² (0.56) Depth: 6/15 00:00:00 14kN >40...Bf3xh5 41.Rf1-g1 Ne5-f3 42.Rg1-g3 Re8-g8 43.Bh3-g2 Rd8-f8 > ² (0.62) Depth: 7/19 00:00:00 43kN >40...Bf3xh5 41.Rf1-g1 Ne5-f3 42.Rg1-g3 Re8-g8 43.g6-g7 Kh6-h7 44.f5-f6 > ² (0.69) Depth: 8/21 00:00:00 88kN >40...Bf3xh5 41.Rf1-h1 Kh6-g5 42.Rh1-g1+ Kg5-h6 43.g6-g7 Ne5-f3 44.Rg1-g3 Re8-g8 > ± (0.72) Depth: 9/24 00:00:00 595kN >40...Bf3xh5-- > ± (1.03) Depth: 10/27 00:00:01 995kN >40...Bf3xh5-- > ± (1.03) Depth: 10/29 00:00:02 1317kN >40...Bf3xh5 41.Rf1-h1 Kh6-g5 42.Rh1-g1+ Kg5-h6 43.g6-g7 Ne5-f3 44.Ne3-g4+ Bh5xg4 >45.Rg1xg4 Kh6-h7 46.Kf2-e3 > ± (1.06) Depth: 11/28 00:00:07 4515kN >40...Bf3xh5 41.Rf1-h1 Kh6-g5 42.Rh1-g1+ Kg5-h6 43.g6-g7 Ne5-f3 44.Ne3-g4+ Bh5xg4 >45.Rg1xg4 Kh6-h7 46.Kf2-e3 > ± (1.06) Depth: 12/29 00:00:12 8140kN >40...Bf3xh5 41.Kf2-g3 Kh6-g5 42.g6-g7 Ne5-f3 43.f5-f6 Bh5-f7 44.Bh3-g4 Nf3-d2 >45.Rf1-f5+ Kg5-h6 46.Bc3xd2 > ± (1.25) Depth: 13/32 00:00:31 20418kN >40...Bf3xh5 41.Kf2-g3 Kh6-g5 42.g6-g7 Ne5-f3 43.f5-f6 Bh5-f7 44.Bh3-g4 Nf3-d2 >45.Rf1-f5+ Kg5-h6 46.Rf5-c5 > ± (1.31) Depth: 14/33 00:01:12 47451kN >40...Bf3xh5-- > +- (1.62) Depth: 15/37 00:03:08 122687kN >40...Bf3xh5-- > +- (1.62) Depth: 15/40 00:04:28 175879kN >40...Bf3xh5 41.Rf1-h1 Kh6-g5 42.Rh1-g1+ Kg5-h6 43.g6-g7 Kh6-h7 44.f5-f6 Ne5-f7 >45.Ne3-f5 Rd8-d1 46.Rg1xd1 > +- (1.72) Depth: 16/39 00:08:42 345199kN > >(Blass, Tel-aviv 15.11.2002) > > >case 2: > >Both Deep Fritz(1000Mhz 64 Mbytes hash) and Deeper blue change their main line >from 42...Nxg4+ 43.Rxg4 Kh5 to 42...Nxg4+ 43.Rxg4 Rd5 at similiar time Deep >fritz is sligthly faster. > > >Kasparov,G - Deep Blue >3rr3/8/2p3Pk/1p2nP2/pP2p1N1/P1B5/2P2K2/6R1 b - - 0 1 > >Analysis by Deep Fritz: > > > >42...Ne5xg4+ 43.Rg1xg4 Kh6-h5 44.Rg4-g1 Rd8-d5 45.f5-f6 Rd5-f5+ 46.Kf2-e1 Re8-g8 >47.f6-f7 Rg8xg6 48.Rg1-f1 > +- (1.53) Depth: 15/34 00:00:45 29095kN >42...Ne5xg4+ 43.Rg1xg4 Rd8-d5 44.f5-f6 Rd5-f5+ 45.Kf2-e2 Re8-g8 46.g6-g7 Kh6-h5 >47.Rg4xe4 Kh5-g6 48.Re4-e6 > +- (1.50) Depth: 16/36 00:01:56 74709kN > >(Blass, Tel-aviv 15.11.2002) > > >T=51 Ne5g4n rg1g4N Kh6h5 rg4g1 Re8f8 pf5f6 Rf8g8 pg6g7 Rd8d5 kf2e3 Rd5d7 bc3e5 >10(6) #[Nxg4](-129)[Nxg4](-129) -129v T=77 Ne5g4n rg1g4N Kh6h5 rg4g1 Re8f8 pf5f6 >Rf8g8 pg6g7 Rd8d5 kf2e3 Rd5f5 ke3e4P 10(6) #[Nxg4](-151)### -151 T=201 Ne5g4n >rg1g4N Rd8d5 pf5f6 Rd5f5 kf2e2 Re8g8 pg6g7 Kh6h5 rg4g2 Kh5h6 ke2e3 Rf5f1 ke3e4P >Kh6h7 rg2h2 11(6) 'ng4' [cont] -151 T=222 Ne5g4n rg1g4N Rd8d5 pf5f6 Rd5f5 kf2e2 >Re8g8 pg6g7 Kh6h5 rg4g2 Rf5f3 bc3b2 Kh5h6 rg2g4 Rf3f5 bb2d4 Pe4e3 ke2e3P Kh6h5 >rg4f4 --------------------------------------- > > >case 3: > >Analysis of the end of game 1 > > >I find near the end of game 1 > >T=73 Rd5f5 kf2e2 Re8g8 pg6g7 Kh6h5 rg4g1 Rf5f3 bc3b2 Kh5h6 rg1g4 Rf3f5 bb2d4 >Pe4e3 ke2e3P Rf5f1 ke3e4 Rf1f6p 11(6) > >#[Rf5](-260)v[find a move]#########[TIMEOUT][et3 1295 >sec]#[Rg8](-183)[Rd1](-180) -180 T=204 Rd5d1 pf6f7 Rd1f1 kf2f1R Kh6h5 pf7e8R/q >Kh5g4r --------------------------------------- --> 44. .. Rd1 > > >It is clear that deeper blue failed low after 204 seconds and a bug caused it to >play a random move but the fact that it failed low is because of Ke3 that does >not appear. > >Deep Fritz also shows similiar fail low > >Here is some analysis on 1000Mhz >It failed low after similiar time > >Kasparov,G - Deep Blue >4r3/8/2p2PPk/1p1r4/pP2p1R1/P1B5/2P2K2/8 b - - 0 1 > >Analysis by Deep Fritz: > >44...e4-e3+-- > = (0.19) Depth: 1/3 00:00:00 >44...e4-e3+-- 45.Kf2-e2 > ± (1.22) Depth: 1/5 00:00:00 >44...Rd5-d1! > ± (1.00) Depth: 1/5 00:00:00 >44...Rd5-d1-- > ± (1.37) Depth: 2/6 00:00:00 >44...Rd5-d1-- > ± (1.37) Depth: 2/6 00:00:00 >44...Re8-d8! > ± (1.28) Depth: 2/7 00:00:00 >44...Re8-g8! > ± (1.25) Depth: 2/8 00:00:00 >44...Re8-g8! 45.g6-g7 > ² (0.47) Depth: 2/11 00:00:00 >44...Re8-g8 45.g6-g7 Rd5-f5+ 46.Kf2-e2 > ± (0.72) Depth: 3/14 00:00:00 >44...Re8-g8 45.g6-g7 Rd5-f5+ 46.Kf2-e2 Rf5-f3 > ± (0.75) Depth: 4/12 00:00:00 2kN >44...Re8-g8 45.g6-g7 Rd5-f5+ 46.Kf2-e2 Rf5-f3 47.Bc3-d2+ Kh6-h7 > ± (0.75) Depth: 5/13 00:00:00 6kN >44...Re8-g8-- > ± (1.06) Depth: 6/16 00:00:00 14kN >44...Re8-g8-- 45.g6-g7 Rd5-h5 46.Rg4xe4 Rh5-h2+ 47.Kf2-e3 Rh2xc2 > +- (1.53) Depth: 6/17 00:00:00 20kN >44...Rd5-f5+! > +- (1.50) Depth: 6/18 00:00:00 36kN >44...e4-e3+! > +- (1.47) Depth: 6/18 00:00:00 44kN >44...e4-e3+! 45.Kf2-e2 Rd5-h5 46.g6-g7 Rh5-h2+ 47.Ke2-d3 Re8-d8+ 48.Bc3-d4 e3-e2 > ² (0.66) Depth: 6/18 00:00:00 51kN >44...e4-e3+-- > ± (0.97) Depth: 7/19 00:00:00 65kN >44...e4-e3+-- 45.Kf2-e2 Rd5-h5 46.g6-g7 Rh5-h2+ 47.Ke2-d3 Re8-d8+ 48.Rg4-d4 >Rd8xd4+ 49.Kd3xd4 Kh6-h7 50.Kd4xe3 > +- (1.47) Depth: 7/24 00:00:00 85kN >44...Rd5-d8! > +- (1.44) Depth: 7/24 00:00:00 146kN >44...Rd5-d8! 45.f6-f7 Re8-f8 46.Kf2-e3 Kh6-h5 47.Rg4-g3 Rd8-d6 > ± (1.25) Depth: 7/24 00:00:00 155kN >44...Rd5-d8-- > +- (1.56) Depth: 8/15 00:00:00 194kN >44...Rd5-d8-- 45.f6-f7 Re8-f8 46.Kf2-e3 Kh6-h5 47.Rg4-g2 Kh5-h6 48.Ke3xe4 > +- (2.56) Depth: 8/18 00:00:00 212kN >44...e4-e3+! > +- (2.53) Depth: 8/21 00:00:00 250kN >44...e4-e3+! 45.Kf2-e2 Rd5-f5 46.f6-f7 Rf5-f2+ 47.Ke2-d3 Re8-d8+ 48.Kd3xe3 >Rf2xc2 > +- (2.03) Depth: 8/23 00:00:00 307kN >44...Rd5-d7! > +- (2.00) Depth: 8/23 00:00:00 494kN >44...Rd5-d7! 45.g6-g7 e4-e3+ 46.Kf2-f3 Kh6-h7 47.Rg4-h4+ Kh7-g6 48.Rh4-e4 Re8-g8 >49.Kf3xe3 > +- (1.94) Depth: 8/23 00:00:00 515kN >44...Re8-d8! > +- (1.91) Depth: 8/23 00:00:00 553kN >44...Re8-d8! 45.g6-g7 Kh6-h7 46.Rg4xe4 Rd5-h5 47.Kf2-g3 Kh7-g8 48.Re4-e7 > +- (1.87) Depth: 8/23 00:00:00 572kN >44...Re8-g8! > +- (1.84) Depth: 8/23 00:00:01 642kN >44...Kh6-h5! > +- (1.81) Depth: 8/23 00:00:01 661kN >44...Kh6-h5-- > +- (2.12) Depth: 9/22 00:00:01 776kN >44...Kh6-h5-- 45.f6-f7 Re8-f8 46.Kf2-g3 Rd5-d8 47.Bc3-g7 e4-e3 > +- (2.50) Depth: 9/22 00:00:01 855kN >44...Re8-g8! > +- (2.47) Depth: 9/22 00:00:01 888kN >44...Re8-g8! 45.g6-g7 Rd5-f5+ 46.Kf2-e2 Kh6-h5 47.Rg4xe4 Kh5-g6 48.Re4-e6 c6-c5 >49.b4xc5 Rf5xc5 > +- (1.91) Depth: 9/22 00:00:01 971kN >44...Re8-g8 45.g6-g7 Rd5-f5+ 46.Kf2-e2 Kh6-h5 47.Rg4xe4 Kh5-g6 48.Re4-e6 c6-c5 >49.b4xc5 Rf5xc5 50.Ke2-d3 > +- (2.00) Depth: 10/23 00:00:02 1568kN >44...Kh6-h5! > +- (1.97) Depth: 10/27 00:00:03 2293kN >44...Kh6-h5! 45.f6-f7 Re8-f8 46.Kf2-g3 Rd5-d8 47.Bc3-g7 Rf8-g8 48.f7xg8Q > +- (1.81) Depth: 10/27 00:00:03 2362kN >44...Kh6-h5 45.f6-f7 Re8-f8 46.g6-g7 Rf8xf7+ 47.Kf2-e2 Rd5-d8 48.g7-g8Q Rd8xg8 >49.Rg4xg8 Rf7-f3 50.Bc3-b2 > +- (1.87) Depth: 11/25 00:00:04 2791kN >44...Kh6-h5-- > +- (2.19) Depth: 12/29 00:00:06 4330kN >44...Kh6-h5-- > +- (2.19) Depth: 12/29 00:00:06 4582kN >44...Re8-g8! > +- (2.16) Depth: 12/29 00:00:07 5091kN >44...Re8-g8! 45.g6-g7 Rd5-f5+ 46.Kf2-e3 Rf5-f3+ 47.Ke3-e2 Kh6-h7 48.Bc3-b2 >Rf3-f5 49.Ke2-e3 Rf5-f1 50.Rg4xe4 > +- (2.03) Depth: 12/29 00:00:09 6238kN >44...Rd5-f5+! > +- (2.00) Depth: 12/31 00:00:15 10217kN >44...Rd5-f5+! 45.Kf2-e2 Re8-g8 46.g6-g7 Kh6-h5 47.Rg4xe4 Kh5-g6 48.Re4-e6 c6-c5 >49.Re6-e4 c5xb4 50.Re4xb4 > +- (1.50) Depth: 12/31 00:00:16 10831kN >44...Rd5-f5+ 45.Kf2-e2 Re8-g8 46.g6-g7 Kh6-h5 47.Rg4xe4 Kh5-g6 48.Re4-e6 c6-c5 >49.Re6-e4 c5xb4 50.Re4xb4 > +- (1.50) Depth: 13/29 00:00:19 12786kN >44...Rd5-f5+-- > +- (1.81) Depth: 14/31 00:00:27 18278kN >44...Rd5-f5+-- 45.Kf2-e2 Re8-g8 46.g6-g7 Kh6-h5 47.Rg4xe4 Kh5-g6 48.Re4-e6 c6-c5 >49.b4xc5 Rf5xc5 50.Ke2-d3 > +- (1.84) Depth: 14/35 00:00:45 31295kN >44...Rd5-f5+ 45.Kf2-e2 Re8-g8 46.g6-g7 Kh6-h5 47.Rg4xe4 Kh5-g6 48.Re4-e6 c6-c5 >49.b4xc5 Rf5xc5 50.Ke2-d3 > +- (1.94) Depth: 15/33 00:01:21 55884kN >44...Rd5-f5+-- > +- (2.25) Depth: 16/37 00:03:29 141379kN >44...Rd5-f5+-- 45.Kf2-e3 Rf5-f3+ 46.Ke3-e2 Re8-g8 47.Bc3-d2+ Kh6-h5 48.Rg4-g5+ >Kh5-h6 49.f6-f7 Rg8-d8 50.g6-g7 > +- (3.06) Depth: 16/37 00:05:42 229369kN >44...Re8-g8! > +- (3.03) Depth: 16/37 00:06:04 242531kN > >(Blass, Tel-aviv 15.11.2002) > >Uri That is the "tactical side". However I have personally seen enough positional mistakes by deep fritz to not compare them at all in that area. DF is perfectly ok in _some_ positions. But in others, forget about it. _particularly_ in pawn endings where things like majorities have to be taken into account. And it simply doesn't...
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