Author: Eduard Nemeth
Date: 11:25:45 11/15/02
Go up one level in this thread
On November 15, 2002 at 13:51:21, Uri Blass wrote: >On November 15, 2002 at 13:22:45, martin fierz wrote: > >>On November 15, 2002 at 12:41:19, Eduard Nemeth wrote: >> >>>On November 14, 2002 at 22:09:42, martin fierz wrote: >>> >>>>i was looking at eduard nemeth's page on computer chess and stumbled across the >>>>following famous position: >>>> >>>>[D]1k6/8/8/8/8/5p1p/PPP5/6K1 w - - 0 1 >>>> >>>>white is a pawn up but will lose the game. i first saw this position about 20 >>>>years ago when our coach showed it to us as kids - he let us choose which side >>>>we wanted to play, and we always wanted white of course, being materialistic :-) >>>>anyway, eduard says on his page that as long as he cared to look, fritz thought >>>>white was winning. i let fritz7 run over night on my laptop, with the result >>>>pasted below: it takes fritz over 10 hours on my old P3 450MHz to see that white >>>>is worse, and after 24 hours the score is not yet showing that white is lost. >>>>any engines do better on this? >>>> >>>>aloha >>>> martin >>>> >>>>Analysis by Fritz 7: >>>> >>>>1.a4 Kc7 2.b4 Kc6 3.c3 Kd5 4.a5 h2+ 5.Kxh2 Kc6 6.Kg3 >>>> +- (3.91) Depth: 10/18 00:00:00 58kN >>>>1.a4 Kc7 2.b4 Kd6 3.c4 Kc6 4.a5 >>>> +- (4.06) Depth: 11/17 00:00:00 73kN >>>>1.a4-- >>>> +- (3.78) Depth: 12/18 00:00:00 113kN >>>>1.a4 Kc7 2.b4 Kc6 3.b5+ Kb6 4.c4 f2+ 5.Kxf2 h2 6.Kg2 h1Q+ 7.Kxh1 >>>> +- (3.53) Depth: 12/18 00:00:00 128kN >>>>1.a4! >>>> +- (3.81) Depth: 13/20 00:00:01 191kN >>>>1.a4! >>>> +- (4.09) Depth: 13/20 00:00:01 207kN >>>>1.a4 Kc7 2.b4 Kc6 3.a5 Kb5 4.c3 >>>> +- (4.13) Depth: 13/20 00:00:01 227kN >>>>1.a4 Kc7 2.b4 Kd6 3.a5 Kc6 4.c4 >>>> +- (4.34) Depth: 14/21 00:00:02 344kN >>>>1.a4 Kc7 2.a5 Kd6 3.b4 Kd5 4.a6 Kc6 5.b5+ >>>> +- (4.13) Depth: 15/26 00:00:03 596kN >>>>1.a4-- >>>> +- (3.84) Depth: 16/27 00:00:05 1040kN >>>>1.a4 >>>> +- (3.84) Depth: 16/27 00:00:06 1083kN >>>>1.a4-- >>>> +- (3.56) Depth: 17/27 00:00:08 1464kN >>>>1.a4 Kb7 2.a5 Ka6 3.b4 Kb5 >>>> +- (3.50) Depth: 17/28 00:00:10 1671kN >>>>1.a4-- >>>> +- (3.22) Depth: 18/30 00:00:12 2366kN >>>>1.a4 >>>> +- (3.22) Depth: 18/30 00:00:13 2471kN >>>>1.a4 Kb7 2.a5 Ka6 3.b4 Kb5 >>>> +- (3.22) Depth: 19/32 00:00:17 3585kN >>>>1.a4-- >>>> +- (2.94) Depth: 20/33 00:00:22 5058kN >>>>1.a4 Kb7 2.a5 Ka6 3.b4 Kb5 >>>> +- (1.81) Depth: 20/33 00:00:26 6126kN >>>>1.a4 Kb7 2.a5 Ka6 3.b4 Kb5 >>>> +- (1.66) Depth: 21/36 00:00:38 9266kN >>>>1.a4 Kb7 2.a5 Ka6 3.b4 Kb5 >>>> +- (1.66) Depth: 22/39 00:01:02 16085kN >>>>1.a4-- >>>> ± (1.38) Depth: 23/40 00:01:34 24793kN >>>>1.a4 Kb7 2.a5 Ka6 3.b4 Kb5 >>>> ± (1.28) Depth: 23/42 00:02:56 51884kN >>>>1.a4 Kb7 2.a5 Ka6 3.b4 Kb5 >>>> ± (1.25) Depth: 24/42 00:04:15 74045kN >>>>1.a4 Kb7 2.a5 Ka6 3.b4 Kb5 >>>> ± (1.25) Depth: 25/44 00:06:46 116088kN >>>>1.a4 Kc7 2.a5 Kb7 3.b3 Ka6 >>>> ± (1.25) Depth: 26/47 00:19:01 320992kN >>>>1.a4-- >>>> ± (0.97) Depth: 27/49 00:38:23 644062kN >>>>1.a4 Ka7 2.a5 Ka6 3.b4 Kb5 4.c3 Ka6 5.c4 Ka7 >>>> µ (-1.22) Depth: 27/51 10:23:09 13057728kN >>>>1.a4-- >>>> -+ (-1.50) Depth: 28/52 10:42:25 13390390kN >>>> >>>>(Fierz, Honolulu 14.11.2002) >>> >>> >>>See here: >>> >>>http://www.beepworld.de/members37/computerschach/tests.htm >>> >>>Eduard >> >>hi eduard, >> >>as i wrote, i found this position on your page and still decided to ask here, as >>there is not much info on your page :-) >>e.g. you did not wait to see how long fritz would take to see black was winning. >> >>anyway, my next question is obvious: why can fritz7, arguably one of the best >>programs around, not see something in many hours that others can see in a few >>seconds?? >> >>aloha >> martin > >I think that it is obvious >Different pruning rules. > >I believe that fritz's pruning rules are not good for this pawn endgame. > >I read that Shredder does even worse and see a clear win for white because it >use null move pruning for this pawn endgame(I guess that it believe that >zugzwang is impossible when there are a lot of passed pawns and in this case it >is simply wrong) > >Uri Hello Uri, hella Martin! Here the analysis by Deep Fritz 7 on P600, 128MB, TBS Cache = 8 MB: Analysis by Deep Fritz 7: 1.a4! +- (3.31) Tiefe: 9/22 00:00:00 81kN 1.a4 Kc7 2.b4 Kc6 3.a5 f2+ 4.Kxf2 +- (3.19) Tiefe: 10/22 00:00:00 94kN 1.a4 Kc7 2.b4 Kc6 3.a5 Kd5 4.c3 h2+ 5.Kxh2 +- (3.22) Tiefe: 11/18 00:00:00 134kN 1.a4! +- (3.50) Tiefe: 12/22 00:00:00 177kN 1.a4! +- (3.78) Tiefe: 12/22 00:00:00 198kN 1.a4 Kc7 2.b4 Kc6 3.a5 Kd5 4.b5 Kd6 5.c3 +- (3.78) Tiefe: 13/27 00:00:01 320kN, tb=50 1.a4-- +- (3.50) Tiefe: 14/29 00:00:03 535kN, tb=154 1.a4 Kb7 2.b4 Kb6 3.a5+ Ka6 4.c4 Kb7 5.b5 Ka7 6.c5 Kb8 7.a6 Ka7 8.c6 Kb6 9.a7 Kxa7 +- (1.81) Tiefe: 14/34 00:00:04 841kN, tb=193 1.b3 +- (1.84) Tiefe: 14/34 00:00:04 897kN, tb=194 1.b3 +- (2.00) Tiefe: 14/34 00:00:04 917kN, tb=195 1.b3 +- (2.31) Tiefe: 14/34 00:00:04 938kN, tb=196 1.b3 +- (2.94) Tiefe: 14/34 00:00:04 967kN, tb=197 1.b3 Kb7 2.b4 Kc7 3.c4 Kc6 +- (3.78) Tiefe: 14/34 00:00:05 1113kN, tb=239 1.b3-- +- (3.50) Tiefe: 15/26 00:00:06 1284kN, tb=460 1.b3 Kc7 2.a4 Kc6 3.a5 Kb7 4.b4 +- (1.81) Tiefe: 15/43 00:00:12 2847kN, tb=630 1.b4 +- (1.84) Tiefe: 15/43 00:00:14 3197kN, tb=1086 1.b4 Kc8 2.b5 Kc7 3.a3 Kb7 4.c4 Kb6 5.a4 Kb7 +- (1.81) Tiefe: 16/29 00:00:15 3448kN, tb=1480 1.b4 Kc8 2.b5 Kc7 3.a3 Kb7 4.c4 Kb6 5.a4 Kb7 +- (1.81) Tiefe: 17/29 00:00:18 3898kN, tb=2566 1.b4-- +- (1.53) Tiefe: 18/40 00:00:23 4785kN, tb=4589 1.b4 Kc7 2.b5 Kd6 3.a4 Kc5 4.c3 Kb6 5.c4 Kb7 ± (1.28) Tiefe: 18/44 00:00:29 6257kN, tb=5839 1.b4 Kc7 2.b5 Kd6 3.a4 Kc5 4.c3 Kb6 5.c4 Kb7 ± (1.28) Tiefe: 19/42 00:00:38 8113kN, tb=10006 1.b4-- ± (1.00) Tiefe: 20/40 00:00:50 10954kN, tb=16027 1.b4 Kc7 2.a4 Kb7 3.a5 Ka6 4.c4 ± (0.75) Tiefe: 20/46 00:01:08 16297kN, tb=21750 1.b4-- ² (0.47) Tiefe: 21/42 00:01:46 26594kN, tb=40905 1.b4 Kc7 2.a4 Kb6 3.a5+ Ka6 4.c4 Ka7 5.b5 Kb7 6.c5 Kb8 7.a6 Ka7 -+ (-2.09) Tiefe: 21/52 00:03:21 55513kN, tb=58684 1.b4 Kc7 2.a4 Kb6 3.a5+ Ka6 4.c4 Ka7 5.b5 Kb7 6.c5 Kb8 7.a6 Ka7 -+ (-2.09) Tiefe: 22/44 00:04:30 74382kN, tb=108757 1.b4 Kc7 2.a4 Kb6 3.a5+ Ka6 4.c4 Ka7 5.b5 Kb7 6.c5 Kb8 7.a6 Ka7 -+ (-2.09) Tiefe: 23/46 00:05:21 87950kN, tb=136697 1.b4-- -+ (-2.37) Tiefe: 24/55 00:07:38 130137kN, tb=234054 1.b4 Kc7 2.a4 Kb6 3.a5+ Ka6 4.c4 Ka7 5.b5 Kb7 6.c5 Kb8 7.a6 Ka7 -+ (-5.25) Tiefe: 24/55 00:12:12 218049kN, tb=416630 (Eduard, MyTown 15.11.2002) Good, or? Best, Eduard
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