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Subject: Re: I'm confused and uncertain now ...

Author: Joachim Rang

Date: 00:35:41 11/26/02

Go up one level in this thread


O
>>
>>New game
>>Shootout (Ruffian1)
>>
>>1.Qxe7+ Ka2 2.Qe6+ Kb1 3.Kg2 c2 4.Qe4 Qb5 5.Kh2 Kb2 6.Qd4+ Ka2 7.Qa7+ Kb1 8.Qh7
>>Qd5 9.Kg1 Kb2 10.Qh8+ Ka2 11.Qh6 Qd1+ 12.Kg2 c1Q+- 0-1
>>
>>n November 25, 2002 at 14:26:33, Robert Hyatt wrote:

>On November 25, 2002 at 12:56:59, Joachim Rang wrote:
>
>>On November 24, 2002 at 23:56:30, Terry McCracken wrote:
>>
>>>[D]8/4p3/4Q3/8/8/k1p3PP/1q3P1K/8 w - - 0 1
>>>
>>>This is reposted as it was given little attention.
>>>
>>>
>>>http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?266990
>>
>>yep, Terry is right! You can easily try it for yourself, by let the engines play
>>against themselves. Althoug many engines show a drawish score in the beginning,
>>they realize after a few moves, that white is going to loose. But you have at
>>least give the engines 1 minute per move:
>>
>>Here are a few winning lines:
>
>
>I don't like that kind of "proof".  If white makes a mistake that it doesn't
>understand
>early on, then it loses later.  That doesn't mean the loss is forced.
>
>Note that I am not saying that it is not a loss, but I didn't see anything
>forced when
>looking at it myself...
>

okay, I took a further look into the position and now I'm uncertain. In a first
shootout all games ended with a win for black, CT "sees" this from the first
move. Tonight I let outplay crafty 18.14 and CT14 this position and here is what
I got:



Crafty 18.14 - Chess Tiger 14.0
for bob, 120'/20+120'/20+60' JOACHIM (1), 26.11.2002

W=16.9 ply; 353kN/s; 723.328 TBAs
B=16.4 ply; 466kN/s; 60.623 TBAs
 1.Qxe7+ Ka2 2.Qe6+ Both last book move  0.00/17  6:19  2...Qb3  -5.86/18  6:50
3.Qa6+  0.00/18  6:18  Kb2 (Kb1)  -5.87/18  5:46  4.Qf6  -0.02/17  6:46  Kb1
-5.86/17  5:56  5.g4 (h4)  -0.01/16  37:42  5...c2  -6.34/16  5:58  6.Qf5
-0.31/16  25:08  Kb2 (Qc4)  -6.30/16  5:58  7.Qe5+  -0.12/14  4:58  Qc3
-6.36/18  12:52  8.Qb5+  -0.12/16  15:06  Ka3  -6.34/17  4:41  9.Qa6+  -0.12/13
1:43  Kb3  -6.32/17  5:57  10.Qb6+  -0.12/13  7:57  Qb4  -6.44/18  9:58  11.Qe6+
(Qe3+)  0.00/13  3:58  11...Qc4 (Kb2)  -6.84/17  12:52  12.Qb6+ (Qe3+)  0.00/12
1:59  12...Kc3 (Ka2)  -6.60/17  4:39  13.Qe3+  -0.38/11  20  Qd3 (Kb2)  -6.52/16
 7:51  14.Qc1  0.00/14  14  Kc4 (Qd1)  -6.48/15  13:33  15.Kg2  0.00/13  42  Qd1
 -6.34/14  3:40  16.Qf4+  0.00/12  2  Kd5  -6.42/13  6:41  17.Qf7+ (Qf5+)
0.00/14  9  17...Kd6 (Kc6)  -5.66/12  3:20  18.Qf4+ (Qf8+)  0.00/14  9  18...Ke7
(Kd7)  -6.21/13  1:18  19.Qc7+ (Qg5+)  0.00/13  9  19...Ke6 (Kf6)  -6.21/13  39
20.Qc6+ (Qc8+)  0.00/13  4  20...Ke5  -0.18/14  39  21.Qe8+ (Qc7+)  0.00/18
6:01  21...Kd6 (Kd5)  -0.33/19  47:17  22.Qd8+  0.00/19  6:00  Kc6 (Ke5)
-0.31/17  12:15  23.Qc8+  0.00/19  6:02  Kd5 (Kb5)  -0.22/16  4:59  24.Qd7+
0.00/20  6:00  Kc4  -0.20/16  2:57  25.Qc7+  0.00/20  6:00  Kb3 (Kd5)  -0.14/17
2:49  26.Qb6+  0.00/20  6:00  Ka3 (Kc3)  -0.11/17  8:31  27.Qc5+ (Qa5+)  0.00/20
 6:00  27...Ka4 (Kb3)  -0.12/17  7:24  28.Qc4+  0.00/21  6:00  Ka5 (Ka3)
-0.10/16  3:25  29.Qc5+  0.00/19  6:00  Ka6 (Ka4)  -0.08/16  5:52  30.Qc6+
0.00/20  6:00  Ka7 (Ka5)  -0.06/16  3:36  31.Qc5+ (Qc7+)  0.00/20  6:00
31...Kb7 (Ka6)  -0.19/15  2:02  32.Qb5+ (Qb4+)  0.00/19  6:00  32...Kc7
-0.17/16  4:03  33.Qc5+  0.00/19  6:00  Kd7  -0.16/15  1:42  34.Qb5+ (Qf5+)
0.00/19  6:00  34...Kd6 (Kc7)  -0.18/15  2:21  35.Qb6+ (Qb4+)  0.00/19  6:00
35...Ke5 (Ke7)  -0.18/15  1:31  36.Qb8+  0.00/18  6:00  Ke4 (Kd5)  -0.15/16
1:34  37.Qb4+ (Qe8+)  0.00/18  6:00  37...Qd4 (Kd5)  -6.24/15  1:37  38.Qa3
0.00/17  6:00  Kd5  -6.33/14  1:28  39.Qa8+ (g5)  0.00/15  5:59  39...Kc4
-6.38/15  2:35  40.Qa6+  -5.59/15  2:59  Kb3 (Kc3)  -6.48/16  1:53  41.Qc6
0.00/15  10:48  Kb2  -6.39/15  2:39  42.Qb5+  -5.06/14  1:30  Kc3  -6.34/16
2:25  43.Qg5 (Qa5+)  -5.25/13  1:59  43...Qe4+  -7.38/15  3:37  44.Kg3  -5.33/15
 1:23  Kd3  -7.38/15  1:40  45.Qc1 (Qc5)  -5.83/15  1:22  45...Ke2  -7.98/16
2:20  46.Kh4  -7.01/15  1:20  Kxf2  -8.90/15  2:05  47.Qd2+  -7.19/14  1:16  Kf1
 -8.33/15  1:22  48.Kh5  -7.20/14  1:14  Qe5+ -8.96/13  1:18  0-1

Although the game ended 0-1 this is not convincing. In the middle of the game,
even CT saw only a draw. After 37. Qe8+ CT shows a draw. So CT could not force
the win...



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