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Subject: Re: Another win...

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 21:04:59 11/28/02

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On November 27, 2002 at 18:36:35, Wayne Lowrance wrote:

>On November 26, 2002 at 11:03:41, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On November 26, 2002 at 10:17:12, Joachim Rang wrote:
>>
>>>well another shootout between DF7 and Crafty 18.14:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Crafty 18.14 - Deep Fritz 7
>>>for bob, 120'/20+120'/20+60' JOACHIM (1), 26.11.2002
>>>
>>>W=16.4 ply; 183kN/s; 163.882 TBAs
>>>B=15.9 ply; 747kN/s; 187.425 TBAs
>>> 1.Qxe7+ Ka2 2.Qe6+  0.00/17  6:19  Qb3  -0.25/16  7:31  3.Qa6+  0.00/17  6:19
>>>Kb2 (Kb1)  -0.16/17  7:27  4.Qf6  0.00/17  6:19  Kb1 (Ka2)  -0.25/16  2:57  5.h4
>>> 0.00/19  6:21  c2  -0.59/16  2:41  6.Qf5  -0.01/18  12:37  Kb2  -0.44/15  2:34
>>>7.Qe5+  -0.01/18  35:10  Qc3  -0.09/14  4:52  8.Qb5+  0.00/16  21:38  Ka3
>>>-0.28/15  5:02  9.Qa6+  -0.50/16  2:06  Kb3  -0.53/15  5:06  10.Qb6+  -0.43/16
>>>2:06  Kc4  -0.53/14  2:59  11.Qe6+  -0.43/17  2:06  Kb5 (Kc5)  -0.81/15  4:35
>>>12.Qd5+  -0.41/16  2:06  Ka4 (Kb6)  -0.69/15  2:54  13.Qa8+ (Qd7+)  -0.28/15
>>>8:24  13...Kb3  -1.16/15  5:28  14.Qb7+  -0.22/15  1:12  Qb4  -1.97/16  13:41
>>>15.Qc7  -0.69/16  1:11  Qd4  -4.84/14  3:41  16.Kg2  -4.87/13  1:14  Qd5+
>>>-5.44/14  4:00  17.Kh2  -5.39/16  1:11  Kb2  -5.34/15  1:46  18.Qb6+  -5.77/15
>>>1:11  Kc1  -5.94/15  1:38  19.f4  -5.79/12  1:11  Kd2 (Kd1)  -7.03/16  4:39
>>>20.Qf2+  -5.94/13  35  Kc3  -7.09/16  3:49  21.Qe3+  -7.26/15  6:01  Qd3
>>>-7.22/15  1:57  22.Qc5+  -7.56/14  36:10  Kd2  -8.44/15  4:11  23.Qa5+  -8.44/14
>>> 4:21  Ke2 -8.50/15  4:25  0-1
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>it seems to me, that the win, although forced, takes many moves. But we know
>>>that queenendgames can take very many moves for the winning side.
>>
>>
>>That is all well and good, but it is not answering "the question".
>>
>>A different question:  Can a carpenter drive in 100 nails without having one
>>go "sproing" and shooting off somewhere?  You get the best carpenter you know
>>and try it and at nail 45, "sproing".  You do this a few times and each time
>>you get a "sproing".  And you conclude it can't be done.  That's not a proof
>>of any sort.  For example, several KQPKQ and KNNKP ending positions are probably
>>impossible for a compute to win.  This kind of testing methodology would suggest
>>those are all draws.  And it would be wrong.
>>
>>Playing a game out proves exactly nothing about the ultimate outcome from the
>>root position.
>>
>>This can be proven as a win by either a human or a program, all they need to do
>>is give analysis with the best black move for each possible white move, to show
>>that _all_ white move at _all_ positions in the tree lead to a loss.  Anything
>>else is a "vincent proof".
>
>Bob please stop continuing your badgering of Vincent
>Thanks
>Wayne


Perhaps when he stops "badgering" me I might consider that.

Tit for tat, and all that...




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