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Subject: Re: Space, Time, Pawn Structure, Material & Initiative

Author: Uri Blass

Date: 12:32:14 12/08/02

Go up one level in this thread


On December 08, 2002 at 15:09:15, Mike S. wrote:

>On December 08, 2002 at 08:34:16, Bob Durrett wrote:
>
>>I am interested in knowing whether or not modern chess engines recognize
>>advantages of these types.
>
>It is probably inavoidable, that the simple positions I tried to design are
>mixtures of various advantages and disadvantages. Hopefully the main element is
>the one in your question, each:
>
>>(1) If the White side has a substantial space advantage, but nothing else, will
>>the chess engine evaluate the positions with that advantage and give it a high
>>score?
>
>[D]rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/PPPPPPPP/8/8/8/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1
>
>Analysis by Fritz 7:
>
>1.h6 gxh6 2.Nf3 hxg5 3.Nxg5 Nh6 4.Bd3
>  +-  (1.53)   Depth: 5/32   00:00:00  93kN
>  ±  (1.31)   Depth: 6/25   00:00:00  124kN
>(...)
>1.h6 g6 2.e6 dxe6 3.Bb2 e5 4.fxg6 hxg6 5.h7 Nd7 6.c6 bxc6 7.hxg8Q
>  +-  (1.44)   Depth: 10/39   00:00:18  5080kN
>  +-  (2.34)   Depth: 11/43   00:00:48  14730kN
>
>Analysis by Chess Tiger 14.0:
>
>1.h6 gxh6 2.Qh5 e6 3.fxe6 dxe6 4.d6 hxg5 5.Bxg5 Qd7 6.c6
>  +-  (2.18)   Depth: 8   00:00:00  55kN
>  +-  (1.66)   Depth: 9   00:00:02  308kN
>(...)
>1.h6 g6 2.fxg6 fxg6 3.e6 dxe6 4.Bb2 Nf6 5.d6 cxd6 6.cxd6 exd6 7.Bxf6
>  +-  (2.62)   Depth: 11   00:00:26  3734kN
>  +-  (3.06)   Depth: 12   00:00:52  8330kN
>
>Interesting, that both start with 1.h6 and later come back to it, consindering
>some other moves in between (I snipped them to save place). The engines
>immediatly choose a move which weakens Black's king position.

This is a bad example because simple square table programs can see white
advantage because it is better to push pawn forward.

h6 simply wins material

New position
rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/7P/PPPPPPP1/8/8/8/RNBQKBNR b KQkq - 0 1

Analysis by yace_mo:

1...gxh6 2.gxh6
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 1   00:00:02
1...gxh6 2.gxh6
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 2   00:00:02
1...gxh6 2.gxh6 e6 3.dxe6
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 3   00:00:02
1...gxh6 2.gxh6 e6 3.dxe6 dxe6
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 4   00:00:02
1...gxh6 2.gxh6 e6 3.dxe6 dxe6 4.fxe6
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 5   00:00:02  5kN
1...gxh6 2.gxh6 e6 3.dxe6 dxe6 4.fxe6 fxe6 5.Qxd8+ Kxd8
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 6   00:00:02  26kN
1...gxh6 2.gxh6 e6 3.dxe6 dxe6 4.fxe6 fxe6 5.Qxd8+ Kxd8 6.Be3
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 7   00:00:02  55kN
1...gxh6 2.gxh6 e6 3.dxe6 dxe6 4.fxe6 fxe6 5.Qxd8+ Kxd8 6.Be3 Be7
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 8   00:00:02  273kN
1...gxh6 2.e6 dxe6 3.Bb2 e5 4.Bxe5 hxg5 5.Bxh8 Nd7
  ²  (0.40)   Depth: 9   00:00:04  1007kN
1...gxh6 2.e6 dxe6 3.Bb2 e5 4.Bxe5 f6 5.Qh5+ Kd7 6.c6+ bxc6 7.bxc6+ Nxc6
  ±  (1.00)   Depth: 9   00:00:05  1007kN
1...c6 2.dxc6
  ±  (0.99)   Depth: 9   00:00:12  3803kN
1...c6 2.dxc6 bxc6 3.bxc6 dxc6 4.Qxd8+ Kxd8 5.hxg7 Bxg7 6.f6 exf6 7.exf6 Bf8
8.Be3
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 9   00:00:22  8503kN
1...c6 2.dxc6 bxc6 3.bxc6 dxc6 4.Qxd8+ Kxd8 5.hxg7 Bxg7 6.f6 exf6 7.exf6 Bf8
8.Be3 Nd7
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 10   00:00:53  21877kN
1...c6 2.hxg7 Bxg7 3.f6 Bf8 4.g6 fxg6 5.Bd3 Qc7 6.d6 exf6 7.dxc7 cxb5
  ²  (0.40)   Depth: 11   00:01:31  39504kN
1...c6 2.Bb2 e6 3.hxg7 cxd5 4.gxh8Q Qxa5+ 5.Rxa5 Nf6
  ±  (1.40)   Depth: 11   00:02:34  67365kN
1...c6 2.Bb2 e6 3.hxg7 Bxg7 4.f6 Bf8 5.g6 fxg6 6.dxe6 Bxc5 7.f7+ Kf8 8.fxg8Q+
Rxg8 9.bxc6
  +-  (1.80)   Depth: 11   00:02:43  70901kN

(blass, tel-aviv 08.12.2002)

>>(2) If the White side has a substantial time (or development) advantage, but
>>nothing else, will the chess engine evaluate the positions with that advantage
>>and give it a high score?
>
>This was the starting position in a large experiment, published in the CSS
>magazine 4/2002:
>
>[D]rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/3PP3/2NB1N2/PPPBQPPP/R3K2R b KQkq - 0 7
>
>In a tournament (double round robin) Black (!) managed to achieve a 20% score. -
>So, not even such a large developement advantage is a guarantee to win in
>computer chess.

Again bad example because it is solved by piece square table.

Uri



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