Author: Vincent Diepeveen
Date: 07:42:10 12/10/02
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On December 10, 2002 at 09:20:02, Nicolas GUIBERT wrote: >>hello, the size of the evaluation of napoleon is only limited by the >>time i spent to it. I have 40 pages of evaluation patterns and ideas >>from Marcel to the left of this keyboard. For this tournament i could >>only implemet page 1 and 2. So i added 40 new patterns/bugfixes to >>the evaluation for last tournament the 2 evenings before the blitz >>tournament. > >Good luck then for these 40 pages. I also have a long, long, long, never-ending, >to-do list... :o))) > >>In C code expressed it is in total let me check: >> >>4000 source code lines. >> >>That ain't much IMHO, knowing i have a multiple of that in DIEP. > >How much in Diep ? >4000 is indeed way insufficient. > >>But it is probably more than most draughts programs (and way more >>than most chess programs). > >Really ? How much do you think it is for other top level chess programs ? > >>there is many bugs in them basically. Some small parameters are real cool >>but some important patterns are of course very badly bugfixed >>are some very important patterns which happen all the time in draughts. > >And sometimes bad patterns become good because of another pattern :o) Nothing's >simple here. Positions are very volatile also. > >>My draughts knowledge is too limited what happened in the game against >>Damage. > > > >>Book is more important than you posted here. >> >>If you feel book is not important then be a gentleman and play 1 time >>without book. > >Good joke :o) > >I will stick to my statement. Book is not very important. It can help reach some >positions where you think your program understands better than your opponent. >But anyway, if your opponent does not play the fashionable opening, you are back >to the drawing board in a quiet position. > >Books help avoiding tense openings like 1.32-28 16-21 !? or 1.35-30, that are >hard to play for computers. But anyway, even without it, if you leave your >computer play by itself, it will probably not play these moves. > >You are totally wrong if you think that Opening books are important in >computer-computer draughts competitions. I had no books for the first two years >of Buggy. Damage (2nd in Culemborg) never had any book ! > >Books is important for your customers if you have some... >Books are important in some tense openings if you want to play them... >You can do without it. > >In computer-computer competitions, I do not estimate books at more than 20 elo >points. Whereas 6-men EGTB is probably 100-130 elo points. > >Can you imagine a Chess program without book ? No way ! > >Is it interesting to learn opening variants by heart ? I don't think so, and I >believe most chess players would agree with this. > >Hence, the Shuffle chess idea. That does not come from nowhere. > >International draughts does have this great feature that (almost) no other game >has, so please do not take it back this feature. > >Most openings are playable. No comparison with Chess for example. I feel your chess knowledge is less than my computerdraughts knowledge. DIEP without book, just like any of the chess programs without book, will do way better than draughts programs without book. It is true however that chess is more professional than draughts and that non of the top programs you can see as weak. So the strategic high level that the openingspreparement then has, in contradiction to all the amateuristic things in draughts (for example it is impossible for me to find any draughtsprogram which has a good bugfree hashtable management), the both worlds cannot get compared. With a 1998 book (outdated, i lost points becuase of it) in draughts and a program with 2 days of work out of januari 99 i could get 4th, even having *major* bugs in many patterns. In computerchess either of that would lose. A 1998 book gets killed. bugs in a single important pattern gets already completely punished. But it is a complete joke to assume that books dominate more in chess than in draughts without realizing the amateurism all other computergame worlds are contronted with when compared to computer chess. Best regards, Vincent
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