Author: Maurizio De Leo
Date: 12:40:35 12/12/02
Go up one level in this thread
On December 12, 2002 at 09:20:59, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>On December 12, 2002 at 09:08:25, Maurizio De Leo wrote:
>
>>You seem to not want to understand what we are talking about. The question was
>>
>>>>>>WESTERN CHESS PROGRAMS ARE GM-STRENGTH.ARE GO PROGRAMS EQUALLY CAPABLE?
>>
>>And you answer was :
>>
>>>>>If similar effort would have been put in go like it has been in chess,
>>>>>my answer would be YES.
>>
>>You also write :
>>
>>>The difference is that a single person will be capable of writing a
>>>go program within a year or 2 that can easily challenge the world top.
>>>In my case if i would be busy a full year fulltime, i would surely,
>>>even without help of a strong go player, be capable of challenging the
>>>go-top.
>>
>>I don't doubt your programming skill, but the question wasn't if you can
>>challenge the top computer-go program of today (which are pathetically weak). It
>>was if you can make a go program that is Gm (= professional) strenght. And the
>>answer is NO. Not with today hardware, not with today technique.
>>I showed you. You claim that the branching factor of go can be reduced to 10
>>ply. Also if that is true, which I doubt, there is a HUGE difference between
>>10^x and 4^x !
>
>You showed nothing.
I showed that you contraddict yourself. I didn't proof anything of course. That
is something that only you can do without data :-)
You just said "go has a b.f. of 10" and "it is possible to make GM strenght go
program with standard chess techniques". This seem contraddiction to me
>You just show you know nothing how far the chess programming world is.
>You didn't investigate any go program i bet.
>Yes i wrote within a few hours a go program a few year ago.
>With that thing i could already search 6 ply at very old
>hardware. No problem.
Nice showing off. However I don't care how good a programmer you are. The
question was
WESTERN CHESS PROGRAMS ARE GM-STRENGTH.ARE GO PROGRAMS EQUALLY CAPABLE?
And you answer was :
If similar effort would have been put in go like it has been in chess,
my answer would be YES.
And having made a go-program in the past isn't on topic unless of course it was
Gm-strengt. But I guess I can easily give a couple of stones of advantage to
your program, and I'm a just a weak go player.
>The main problems for GO is:
> - you can't sell your stuff easily, because the
> vaste majority of buyers live in Japan (china is not
> relevant, they earn too little to afford a go program; so
> they copy it i guess).
> The Japanese market is very closed
If you can make a 1/2 dan go program (candidate master strenght) there would be
no problem of closed market. You would sell thousands of copies of it, because
it would be something like 600 elo stronger than the world top. Anyway I
seriously doubt you can do it.
>You see a factor 60 is pretty much difference in speed.
And I already told you that for overcoming a 10 to 4 ratio in branching factor
you should really do MORE than that.
>It is a simple matter of amateuristic programming, but all computerchess
>programmers exactly know what causes it. Somehow in the computergo
>mailing list they do not.
Apart for your usual showing off, I noticed that you didn't respond to any of my
two questions.Expecially on the second, I read in another topic that you have a
few thousands to bet, so maybe this is a good occasion :-)
>>>>>Add to that, that there is no GM title in GO.
(1) So ? What this mean ? (1)
There is no "professional" title in Chess. There is no "Davis Cup" in soccer.
>>>>>Suppose you let a small FM play against a strong chessprogram at a level
>>>>>of a full day for the entire game.
>>>>>Of course the FM will win.
>>>>
>>>>What ?
>>>>Usually go players have 6/8 hours for the game which isn't far to 2h/40+2h/40
>>>>+30min of top chess. Anyway you are a strong Fide Master, almost
>>>>international master.
>>
(2) Would you mind beating Deep Fritz 7 by 10-0 (i would accept also 9-1) ?
Maybe time can be 10 hour for player for the game ? Or 12 hour, as you
want. (2)
Maurizio
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