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Subject: Re: Piecelist or bitboard

Author: Uri Blass

Date: 05:07:02 12/17/02

Go up one level in this thread


On December 17, 2002 at 07:59:21, JW de Kort wrote:

>On December 17, 2002 at 07:53:15, Uri Blass wrote:
>
>>On December 17, 2002 at 07:30:02, JW de Kort wrote:
>>
>>>On December 17, 2002 at 07:07:46, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>
>>>>On December 17, 2002 at 06:31:50, JW de Kort wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On December 17, 2002 at 05:45:28, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On December 17, 2002 at 05:34:31, JW de Kort wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On December 17, 2002 at 05:09:31, Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On December 17, 2002 at 04:15:26, JW de Kort wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Hi,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Currently i'am using a piecelist to keep track of the locations of the pieces in
>>>>>>>>>my 0x88 based program. Iám thinking about removing this list and replacing it by
>>>>>>>>>a bitboard to keep track of the piecelocations of white pieces and black pieces.
>>>>>>>>>I'am wondering of anybody else does this (i think some one will) and if this is
>>>>>>>>>a good improvement to spees up my engine which is terrably slow. I have good
>>>>>>>>>expierences with other bitboards in my program. I already use bitboard to do the
>>>>>>>>>pawn evaluations and i'am thinkin about gradually removing the 0x88 stuff to
>>>>>>>>>replace it with bitboards
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>any help appreciated
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Have you used a profiler to check where the program is spending most of its
>>>>>>>>time?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>>GCP
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Indeed i did. Most of its time is pend in the evualation code but that is nomal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I do not think that this is normal
>>>>>>Amir ban said that only 20% of the time is spent on the evaluation code of
>>>>>>Junior.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The question is also what you define as evaluation code.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I have arrays that are used in the evaluation and I update them when I make
>>>>>>moves.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Should I include the time that I update the array as part of my evaluation code.
>>>>>>even if the arrays are used not only for evaluation but also for extension
>>>>>>rules?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Uri
>>>>>
>>>>>Dear Uri,
>>>>>
>>>>>I do not dream of comparing my program to Junior. I managed to cut the time
>>>>>spend evaluating by using lazy evaluation. No my program does not do a full
>>>>>evaluation in a large number of positions.
>>>>>
>>>>>If i would do what you did i would not include the time spend updating as part
>>>>>of the time spend evaluating.
>>>>>
>>>>>Regards
>>>>>
>>>>>JWK
>>>>
>>>>By that definition today I use less than 5% of the time in evaluation.
>>>>My evaluation includes only the following factors:
>>>>1)piece square table
>>>>2)mobility when I use only the number of moves that both sides have(this
>>>>evaluation can be improved but it clearly help my program and I believe that it
>>>>is more important than knowledge about pawn structure).
>>>>3)double pawns(I use special arrays that are updated during making move for it)
>>>>4)some secret factor that is easy to evaluate for my program.
>>>
>>>I have no exact percentage but i estimate about 50% is spend evaluating. I use
>>>1) also, 2) i do not because i am afraid it is to costly to calculate but i will
>>>try it soon, 3( i also have plus a number of other pawn factors, en 4) i also
>>>have some extra features like devolpment etc.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>I believe that secret 4 is something that no program or almost no program knows
>>>>to evaluate and I do not want to lose my relative advantage.
>>>
>>>You are right about this.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>I have also secrets in my search algorithm but at the same time I also do stupid
>>>>things that no top program does(for example I do not use hash table efficientely
>>>>and I do not have some productive extensions that crafty have) so my search is
>>>>still clearly inferior to the search of the top programs.
>>>>
>>>
>>>The same goes for my program. My hashtable is not used efficiently but iam happy
>>>that is does work at all.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>My program can often beat crafty in tactics but I am not going to say that
>>>>it is better than crafty in tactics inspite of the fact that it may be better
>>>>than crafty in the GCP test suite(comparison in the gcp test suite is unfair
>>>>because movei trains on this suite and I decided about changes in my search
>>>>algorithm in some cases from learning the reason that movei failed).
>>>
>>>I have not jet matches up my program agains Crafty.
>>
>>I also do not play games with it against crafty and I meant to say that it often
>>is better than crafty in test positions.
>
>Sorry, i miss understood, but never the less it is a good result that i hope to
>achieve also one day. Why don't you play Crafty?
>
>
>BTW"Is your engine available to the public? It would be nice to test my engine
>against.

The latest version is not available but old movei is available and is clearly
better than tscp and probably slightly better than gerbil so you can use it for
testing.

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>My target is of course to do it playing better but if I have some trick to make
>>>>it clearly faster in some positions without making it slower in other positions
>>>>then this trick is probably productive trick also in games(I also test in games
>>>>to verify that I did not do something bad in my search rules).
>>>
>>>Can you be more specific?
>>
>>I can give one example
>>
>>I have an array that tell me if a piece is pinned(I use that array in my move
>>generator that generates only legal moves) so there is no problem for me to
>>check if the queen of the side to move is pinned.
>
>I'am thinking about implementing something like that but in 0x88 i think it is
>very difficult. Do you use 0x88 or bitboards?

I do not use bitboards but I also do not use 0x88.

I use array of 64 squares.
a1 is 0 and h8 is 63.

For every square I use a 32 bit number to store information about the directions
that a square is attacked in my attack tables(16 for white and 16 for black).

Uri



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