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Subject: Re: Nullmove crap

Author: Rolf Tueschen

Date: 09:37:10 12/19/02

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On December 19, 2002 at 11:11:14, Robert Hyatt wrote:

>On December 19, 2002 at 08:55:56, Rolf Tueschen wrote:
>
>>On December 18, 2002 at 22:34:34, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>>Here is the point.  I will play you 100 games.  And in _each_ game, at a
>>>place of my choice, I get to make two moves in a row.  I believe I can win that
>>>match 100-0.
>>>
>>>If I am in a position where I make two moves in a row and _still_ can't do any
>>>damage to your position, my position sucks badly...
>>
>>But chess is no such game.
>
>Actually it is, and I'll be happy to play a match of games here with you
>to show why the "null-move observation" is so powerful for chess...
>
>It isn't the way a human does things, although the idea of "multiple moves in
>a row" is not an uncommon analysis approach to see how to get a piece to a
>particular place...
>
>
>>
>>Bob, you didn't read the text of that interview. Feist said that FRITZ could not
>>have been made so strong without a special selectivity. Now my argument goes
>>against such myst. I say that a super GM, a Kramnik, knows of many long-range
>>tools, other than just exchanging Q and so on. It also goes against that myst
>>because with high select. you must oversee something by force. Something with
>>deeper solution of course, because otherwise you (the computer) would have found
>>it. So, nullmove, if it is presented as THE solution for superior chess, is crap
>>IMO. It's not just the technique, it's more the propaganda myst.
>
>It isn't "THE" solution.  It is an improvement to the original solution,
>which was a minimax tree search as proposed by Claude Shannon in the late
>1940's.  Then Newell, Simon and Shannon came up with alpha/beta which is must
>a better way to do minimax.  Null-move is just a better way to do alpha/beta.
>
>It isn't a "breakthrough new approach"...

And now just tell me your verdict, is a Kramnik capable of exploiting the
neccessary selectivity of every commercial program, yes or no? :)

I was reacting on the praising of selctivity by Feist.

Of course if you had to speak about military secrets, then just nod one or two
times... //1x is You are right// //2x You've quite well understood the weakness
of the programs//

Rolf Tueschen





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>>Rolf Tueschen



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