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Subject: Re: Move Ordering

Author: Uri Blass

Date: 08:09:16 12/26/02

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On December 26, 2002 at 10:55:55, Robert Hyatt wrote:

>On December 26, 2002 at 01:34:46, Miguel A. Ballicora wrote:
>
>>On December 25, 2002 at 15:18:29, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>>On December 25, 2002 at 10:46:17, Dieter Buerssner wrote:
>>>
>>>>On December 24, 2002 at 23:05:09, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>[...] Why don't you go read Knuth/Moore's paper on
>>>>>alpha beta.  There you will find that move ordering does _not_ affect the
>>>>>final score, only the size of the tree.  Something every senion-level computer
>>>>>science student should know.
>>>>
>>>>I think, in most modern chess programs, move ordering can affect the final
>>>>score. Reasons can be extensions/pruning/hash tables.
>>>>
>>>>Regards,
>>>>Dieter
>>>
>>>If move ordering affects extensions or pruning, _something_ is broken.  As
>>>that violates the basic premise of alpha/beta...
>>
>>I am really surprised by this statement. Any pruning or extension that depends
>>on alpha will be affected by the move ordering. With different move ordering,
>>the same position might face different bounds, hence, different extensions could
>>be triggered.
>>
>That is the point.  Do you want to find something by serendipity?  I don't.
>I want consistent behavior every time.  And if something is dependent on move
>ordering, it is dependent on luck.  IE do you overwrite a position that
>eliminates a hash move which eliminates an extensions?
>
>_not_ a good design, IMHO.

Ok
You say in other words:
It is not a good design to make programs use null move pruning.
It is not a good design to make programs better.

For some reason I prefer to be dependent on move ordering and better.
I do not care about instability if it makes my program better.

Uri



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