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Subject: Re: about using killers in Rebel and about programming

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 08:30:34 01/01/03

Go up one level in this thread


On January 01, 2003 at 02:08:37, Uri Blass wrote:

>On January 01, 2003 at 01:01:24, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On December 31, 2002 at 20:32:28, Uri Blass wrote:
>>
>>>On December 31, 2002 at 19:50:43, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>
>>>>On December 31, 2002 at 17:49:52, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>From Ed programmer stuff
>>>>>
>>>>>Killer-One [current ply]      110
>>>>>Killer-One [current ply-2]    108
>>>>>Killer-Two [current ply]      106
>>>>>Killer-Two [current ply-2]    104
>>>>>
>>>>>I until today used only
>>>>>
>>>>>Killer-One [current ply]
>>>>>Killer-Two [current ply]
>>>>>
>>>>>I am interested to know if using 4 killers is a new idea or maybe this idea is
>>>>>known to be used by other programs.
>>>>
>>>>It was known in 1975.  Chess 4.0 used this.  You can find it mentioned in
>>>>the chess 4.7 chapter of "Chess Skill in Man and Machine."
>>>>
>>>>We did that in Cray Blitz, but we also did more killers, going back to the
>>>>root in fact...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I did try part of the idea that Ed suggested without clear results.
>>>>>
>>>>>I changed the order of moves in movei to
>>>>>
>>>>>Killer-One [current ply]
>>>>>Killer-One [current ply-2]
>>>>>Killer-Two [current ply]
>>>>>
>>>>>instead of
>>>>>
>>>>>Killer-One [current ply]
>>>>>Killer-Two [current ply]
>>>>>
>>>>>I found that it is better only in part of the cases and have not clear results
>>>>>if it is better or worse than previous order but I had a bug in the
>>>>>implementation and I checked killer[ply-2] even in cases when ply-2<0.
>>>>>
>>>>>It is surprising that the program did not crush and even performed better in
>>>>>part of the cases.
>>>>>
>>>>>I still do not use check bound software.
>>>>>I asked in a previous discussion about checking bounds but I solved the
>>>>>problem that caused me to ask about it and I also read a claim that if a
>>>>>varaible is out of bound the program should crush.
>>>>>
>>>>>I also looked for a software that will help me under visual C++ but after I
>>>>>asked to get it for free evaluation and I only got an email that suggest me to
>>>>>contact them by fax or telephone I did not respond(I responded by email but my
>>>>>email was blocked for some reason and I decided that the subject is probably not
>>>>>very important).
>>>>>
>>>>>I think now that it may be important because a chess program may even play well
>>>>>inspite of the fact that it calls killer[-1] so it is possible that I have more
>>>>>mistakes like that.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>That probably won't hurt a thing.  That move probably would not pass your
>>>>legality check, so even a garbage move would just waste a tiny bit of time
>>>>as you notice it is not legal in the current position.
>>>
>>>Yes but I can still imagine problems.
>>>
>>>1)If I am unlucky a garbage move may be legal so it can be counterproductive.
>>>
>>>2)I thought that garbage may do something worse than giving a random
>>>number.
>>>I thought that if my program try to look at some place that does not exist the
>>>program may crush and not give me a random number or may change another array.
>>>
>>>I also cared not to have -1
>>> A[x]=1; and not
>>>if (x>=0)
>>>A[x]=1;
>>
>>That doesn't hurt a thing.  a[-1] is one "thing" before a[0].  If a is an
>>integer, a[-1] is simply 4 bytes in front of a[0]...
>>
>>>
>>>If you are right then it means that there are cases when I can save time by
>>>doing something like
>>>
>>>A[x]=1; instead of
>>>if (x>=0)
>>>A[x]=1;
>>
>>You can do that just so you _know_ what is in front of A.  IE in fortran,
>>arrays go from 1 to N, rather than 0 to N-1 as in C.  But in Cray Blitz we
>>wanted to reference a[i] where i could be 0, 1, ... and all we did was make
>>sure that there was a memory word that could safely be zapped, in front of
>>a[1].  We did it like this:
>>
>>common /x/  dummy, a(10)
>>
>>a(1) thru a(10) are normal array references.  a(0) actually stores on top of
>>"dummy".
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>The point is that if I understand correctly then I understand from your post
>>>that a[x]=1 when x=-1 can not change relevant information.
>>
>>No, it can _definitely_ change something, just not exactly what you think it
>>is changing.  :)  It will change what is in _front_ of the array.  In C, the
>>only way to know what is in front of the array is to put the array in a
>>structure, and then put something right in front of that array declaration
>>to declare the "dummy" space needed for a[-1].  Or a[-2] if you want to go
>>backward even farther.
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>If I assume that the condition x>=0 happen in most of the cases then it seems
>>>clear that A[x]=1 is faster.
>>
>>Correct.  If you know that -1 <= x <= N, then one dummy word in front of the
>>array will let you eliminate the test.
>
>This was only thinking about a theoretical case but I found other things in my
>code.
>
>In a lot of places in my program
>I have a condition like
>
>while (target!=-1&&info[target]==EMPTY)
>
>In most cases target!=-1
>
>I thought that I need to do the && in this order
>Do you say that I can change the order without risks?

Yes.  I would put the most likely to be false _first_.  And I would get
rid of the -1 altogether and use one of the tricks pointed out in this thread
to make -1 safe as a subscript to get rid of a branch...



>
>Suppose that the loop stops in most of the cases because of the fact that
>info[target]=EMPTY.

Good optimization:  In the case of && compound conditionals, put the most
likely to be false _first_.  Put the least likely to be false _last_.


>
>Does it going to do my program faster or maybe the compiler can detect these
>cases in profile optimazions?


It should probably catch it in profile-feedback, but even better is to simply
eliminate the branch completely by making -1 legal if you want to do that.  Or
you can simply add 1 to _all_ subscripts so that -1 becomes 0...




>
>I thought that even checking the value of info[-1] can give an error or change
>some varaible that I do not want.


You can't change something without an operator to modify the value.  IE reading
a value will never change it unless you use a ++/-- modifier, for example...
-1 will not give an error on most machines.  There are a _few_ where it will
cause problems but you will probably never run into one of those.



>
>Uri



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