Author: Roy Brunjes
Date: 14:20:55 01/01/03
Go up one level in this thread
On January 01, 2003 at 12:59:22, Christopher A. Morgan wrote: > >Your FEN should be: 5k2/7p/6p1/1p3p2/5P2/5P2/PPr4P/5KR1 b - -, that is black to >move, not white. Of course you are correct -- my diagram showed White to move and it was Black to move. Sorry! > >Shredder 7 sees ...Rxh2 almost immediately, while Fritz 8 sees it immediately, >both on Athlon 750 with 96MB hash. > >New game >5k2/7p/6p1/1p3p2/5P2/5P2/PPr4P/5KR1 b - - 0 1 > >Analysis by Shredder 7: > >1...Rxb2 > ì (-1.26) Depth: 1/1 00:00:00 >1...Rxb2 > ì (-1.26) Depth: 1/1 00:00:00 >1...Rxb2 2.Rg2 > ì (-1.30) Depth: 2/4 00:00:00 >1...Rxh2 2.Rg4 > ì (-1.32) Depth: 2/4 00:00:00 >1...Rxh2 2.Rg2 Rxg2 3.Kxg2 > ì (-1.39) Depth: 2/4 00:00:00 >1...Rxh2 2.Rg2 Rxg2 3.Kxg2 > ì (-1.39) Depth: 3/4 00:00:00 >1...Rxh2 2.Rg2 Rxg2 3.Kxg2 h5 > -+ (-1.66) Depth: 4/5 00:00:00 >1...Rxh2 2.Rg2 Rxg2 3.Kxg2 h5 > -+ (-1.66) Depth: 4/6 00:00:00 >1...Rxh2 2.Rg2 Rxg2 3.Kxg2 h5 4.Kg3 > -+ (-1.67) Depth: 5/10 00:00:00 >1...Rxh2 2.Rg2 Rxg2 3.Kxg2 h5 4.Kg3 Ke7 > -+ (-1.79) Depth: 6/9 00:00:00 >1...Rxh2 2.Rg2 Rxg2 3.Kxg2 h5 4.b3 Ke7 5.a4 > -+ (-1.81) Depth: 7/11 00:00:00 5kN >1...Rxh2 2.Rg2 Rxg2 3.Kxg2 h5 4.b3 b4 5.Kg3 Ke7 > -+ (-1.80) Depth: 8/14 00:00:00 13kN >1...Rxh2 2.Rg2 Rxg2 3.Kxg2 h5 4.a3 Ke7 5.Kg3 Ke6 6.b3 > -+ (-1.91) Depth: 9/13 00:00:00 26kN >1...Rxh2 2.Rg2 Rxg2 3.Kxg2 h5 4.a3 Ke7 5.Kg3 Ke6 6.b3 Kd5 > -+ (-1.87) Depth: 10/15 00:00:00 43kN >1...Rxh2 2.Rg2 Rxg2 3.Kxg2 Ke7 4.a3 Kd8 5.Kg3 h5 6.b3 Ke7 7.a4 > -+ (-1.62) Depth: 11/14 00:00:00 71kN >1...Rxh2 2.Rg2 Rh4 3.Kf2 Rxf4 4.b3 Ke7 5.Ke3 Rh4 6.a3 Ke6 > ì (-1.34) Depth: 11/18 00:00:01 150kN >1...Rxh2 2.Rg2 Rh4 3.Kf2 Rxf4 4.b3 Rh4 5.a3 Ke7 6.Ke3 Ke6 7.Rd2 > ì (-1.39) Depth: 12/19 00:00:02 294kN >1...Rxh2 2.Rg2 Rh4 3.Kf2 Rxf4 4.b3 Rh4 5.a3 Ke7 6.Ke3 Ke6 7.Rd2 g5 > -+ (-1.45) Depth: 13/21 00:00:03 523kN >1...Rxh2 2.Rg2 Rh4 3.Re2 Rxf4 4.Kg2 Rd4 5.Kg3 Rd5 6.b3 b4 7.Rc2 h6 8.Rc7 > ì (-1.40) Depth: 14/23 00:00:05 1032kN, tb=1 >1...Rxh2 2.Rg2 Rh4 3.Rc2 Rxf4 4.Kg2 Rd4 5.Kg3 h5 6.Rc5 b4 7.a4 bxa3 8.bxa3 Ke7 > ì (-1.36) Depth: 15/23 00:00:10 2093kN, tb=5 >1...Rxh2 2.Rg2 Rh4 3.Rc2 Rxf4 4.Kg2 Rd4 5.Kg3 h5 6.Rc5 Rb4 7.b3 Ke7 > ì (-1.30) Depth: 16/25 00:00:17 3409kN, tb=41 >1...Rxh2 2.Rg2 Rh4 3.Rc2 Rxf4 4.Kf2 h5 5.Rc5 Rb4 6.b3 Ke7 7.Rc6 Kf7 8.Kg2 > -+ (-1.50) Depth: 17/29 00:00:38 7792kN, tb=184 >1...Rxh2 2.Rg2 Rh4 3.Rd2 Rxf4 4.Kg2 Ke7 5.Kg3 Rb4 6.b3 h5 7.Rd3 Kf6 8.a3 Ke6 > -+ (-1.46) Depth: 18/30 00:01:33 18691kN, tb=1151 >1...Rxh2 2.Rg2 Rxg2 3.Kxg2 Ke7 4.a3 Ke6 5.b3 Kd5 6.Kg3 Kd4 7.Kh3 Kc3 8.a4 Kb4 >9.Kg2 bxa4 10.Kg1 > ì (-1.35) Depth: 19/31 00:02:09 26368kN, tb=1782 > > >New game >5k2/7p/6p1/1p3p2/5P2/5P2/PPr4P/5KR1 b - - 0 1 > >Analysis by Fritz 8: > >1...Rxh2! > -+ (-2.44) Depth: 7/16 00:00:00 12kN >1...Rxh2 2.b3 Rxa2 3.Rg3 > -+ (-2.59) Depth: 7/16 00:00:00 15kN >1...Rxh2 2.b4 Rxa2 3.Rg3 Rb2 4.Rh3 > -+ (-2.69) Depth: 8/16 00:00:00 32kN >1...Rxh2 2.b3 Rxa2 3.Rg3 Rb2 4.Rh3 Kg7 5.b4 Rxb4 > -+ (-2.75) Depth: 9/21 00:00:00 66kN >1...Rxh2-- > -+ (-2.47) Depth: 10/18 00:00:00 115kN >1...Rxh2 2.Rg2 Rxg2 3.Kxg2 Ke7 4.a3 Kd6 5.b3 h6 6.a4 b4 7.Kf2 Kd5 > -+ (-2.34) Depth: 10/18 00:00:00 131kN >1...Rxh2 2.Rg2 Rxg2 3.Kxg2 Ke7 4.a3 Kd6 5.b3 h6 6.a4 bxa4 7.bxa4 Kc5 8.Kg3 Kb4 > -+ (-2.41) Depth: 11/19 00:00:00 255kN >1...Rxh2 2.Rg2 Rxg2 3.Kxg2 Ke7 4.a3 Kd6 5.b3 h6 6.a4 bxa4 7.bxa4 Kc5 8.Kg3 Kb4 > -+ (-2.41) Depth: 12/20 00:00:01 446kN >1...Rxh2 2.Rg2 Rxg2 3.Kxg2 Ke7 4.a3 Kd6 5.b3 h6 6.Kf2 Kd5 7.a4 Kd4 8.axb5 Kc5 >9.Ke3 > -+ (-2.31) Depth: 13/22 00:00:03 887kN >1...Rxh2 2.Rg2 Rxg2 3.Kxg2 Ke7 4.a3 Kd6 5.b3 Kc5 6.Kf2 Kd4 7.a4 b4 8.Kg3 h6 >9.Kh4 > -+ (-2.44) Depth: 14/27 00:00:05 1779kN, tb=1 >1...Rxh2 2.Rg2 Rxg2 3.Kxg2 Ke7 4.a3 Kd6 5.b3 h6 6.Kf2 Kc6 7.Ke3 Kc5 8.Kd3 Kb6 >9.a4 bxa4 > -+ (-2.44) Depth: 15/24 00:00:10 3202kN, tb=3 >1...Rxh2 2.Rg2 Rxg2 3.Kxg2 Ke7 4.a3 Kd6 5.b3 Kd5 6.Kf2 Kd4 7.a4 b4 8.Kg3 h6 >9.Kh3 Kd5 > -+ (-2.38) Depth: 16/28 00:00:17 5959kN, tb=17 >1...Rxh2 2.Rg2 Rxg2 3.Kxg2 Ke7 4.a3 Kd6 5.b3 Kd5 6.Kf2 Kd4 7.a4 b4 8.Kg3 h6 >9.Kh3 Kd5 > -+ (-2.38) Depth: 17/29 00:00:36 13577kN, tb=47 >1...Rxh2! > -+ (-2.66) Depth: 18/35 00:01:01 23063kN, tb=76 >1...Rxh2 2.Rg2 Rxg2 3.Kxg2 Ke7 4.Kf2 Kd6 5.Ke3 Kd5 6.Kd2 Kc4 7.Ke3 h6 > -+ (-2.63) Depth: 19/41 00:02:06 46431kN, tb=578 > > > Both Shredder 7 and Fritz 8 are impressive here. Fritz 8 slightly more so as it spots the relevant line sooner than Shredder 7. Thanks for the data! Roy > >On January 01, 2003 at 11:41:37, Roy Brunjes wrote: > >>I came across this endgame in a software course I am using for chess training. >>I gave the position to Hiarcs 8, Junior 7, and Chessmaster 9000 and they seem to >>miss the point. I am wondering what Fritz 8 and Shredder 7 have to say about >>it. >> >>[D] 5k2/7p/6p1/1p3p2/2r2P2/5P2/PP5P/5K1R b - - >> >>In this position, with Black to move, Rc2 is the stated best move. I have no >>argument with that and neither do any of the programs I tried. The rub comes >>after this: >> >>1. ... Rc2 >>2. Rg1 >> >>Which gives this position: >> >>[D] 5k2/7p/6p1/1p3p2/5P2/5P2/PPr4P/5KR1 w - - >> >>Now White is attempting to activate his rook. Programs I have tried (listed >>above) all want to play 2. ... Rxb2 after searches running for 3-4 minutes >>(admiteddly on my slow PIII 500 MHz laptop). This leads to a much more >>difficult ending that Hiarcs 8 was unable to win against me (and I'm a Class C >>player) at a time control of 10 mins + 10 secs per move. That tells me that the >>move Rxb2 is probably not best. >> >>The training software says 2. ... Rxb2 is a mistake and instead recommends 2. >>... Rxh2! >> >>Then, after 2. ... Rxh2 comes 3. Rg2 Rxg2 4. Kxg2. Now both sides bring Kings >>to the center and Black must use his passed pawn on the h file to distract the >>White King from his job of keeping Black's King away from his pawns on a2 and >>b2. Once the White King is forced to head toward the Black h pawn, the invasion >>of the Black King wins the game. >> >>My question is this: What programs will play 2. ... Rxh2? And 3. ... Rxg2 >>[after 3. Rg2 by White] instead of 3. ... Rh4, and after how much time? >>Chessmaster 9000 wants to play 2. ... Rxh2 for a bit but then opts for 2. ... >>Rxb2 instead after a search of 7/12 ply. It seems to stick with that for quite >>a while and then finally changes back to 2. ... Rxh2 at ply 10/15 (4 minutes 25 >>seconds on my old, slow PIII-500 laptop). >> >>It seems to me that the principles are pretty clear and that a good endgame >>playing program should not need huge amounts of CPU time to select the right >>plan. >> >>Thanks in advance for putting Fritz 8 and Shredder 7 to the test. Feel free to >>try it with other programs as well -- I have particular interest in those two >>however as they are newer and I have no access to them. So far, only CM9000 >>does find the right sequence of moves, though it takes quite a few ply to do so. >> Yes, of course my faster computers would get there quicker, but still, they >>will require just as many ply to see the win. I would have thought a program >>with lots of endgame knowledge could spot the win fairly quickly. >> >>Lastly, Happy New Year to all CCC readers! >> >>Roy
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