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Subject: Re: How do hash tables help move ordering? (Fail Low)?

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 12:56:44 09/22/98

Go up one level in this thread


On September 21, 1998 at 17:25:38, Inmann Werner wrote:

>On September 20, 1998 at 20:58:08, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On September 20, 1998 at 17:49:17, Inmann Werner wrote:
>>
>>>On September 20, 1998 at 17:30:31, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>
>>>>On September 20, 1998 at 14:21:15, John Coffey wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I think that the subject says it all.
>>>>>
>>>>>John Coffey
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Yes.  You store the best move when you store a position, assuming you
>>>>have a best move (you don't if you searched all moves and failed low,
>>>>of course.)  You should try this move first each time you encounter this
>>>>position...
>>>
>>>Whats the thing with the fail low?
>>>Why can I not use the Hash table for move ordering in this case?
>>>(I do now!)
>>>
>>>Werner
>>
>>
>>You can't...  if you fail low, all you know is that for every move at that
>>ply, the opponent has a move that "refutes" it.  You have *no* idea about which
>>move is best, which is worst, which are "in the middle".  All you know, thanks
>>to alpha/beta, is that *all* are bad.  So which one would you try first?  In
>>this position, at this depth, or at a deeper depth?  No way to know because
>>*all* moves looked bad...
>
>OK. You are right. But in this occasion, there is no chance at all to get a
>good first move to try. So why not use the hash entry and spare on "if"?
>Its a little bit faster and there is no harm and no use at all.
>
>Werner


The question is still the same... "Where do you get this move from?"  When
I store an exact score or a fail-high indication, I know that for the exact
score, the best move is in the PV array, and for fail-high, the best move is
the move I just searched.  But *where* do you get one for the fail-low case?
because *every* move failed low, which do you stick in the table?  A random
one?  That would be bad because it is likely that trying good captures would
be better than a move chosen at random...  or trying killers, or trying
history moves, or trying anything but a random one..



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