Author: Uri Blass
Date: 23:57:38 01/11/03
Go up one level in this thread
On January 11, 2003 at 19:03:26, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On January 11, 2003 at 15:24:24, Kolss wrote: > >>On January 11, 2003 at 14:01:28, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On January 11, 2003 at 12:46:35, Kolss wrote: >>> >>>>On January 11, 2003 at 11:14:10, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>> >>>>>On January 11, 2003 at 07:43:24, Drexel,Michael wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>[D] 4nnk1/8/6b1/4BP2/2N1B1K1/8/8/8 b - - 0 1 >>>>>> >>>>>>I just came over this endgame position with Crafty 19.01 as analysis engine in >>>>>>CB-GUI. Crafty suggested 1...Bxf5+ with a score of 0.01. >>>>>>1...Bf7 seems to be a simple draw. >>>>>>you probably told him 3 pieces against 2 pieces without pawns is draw, but I >>>>>>doubt this is a good idea in the endgame BBNK vs. NNK. You might be better >>>>>>informed but I would think this endgame is almost always a win and would even >>>>>>assume that it is almost always a win within 50 moves. >>>>>>If I were a tablebase-expert like you, I would fix it immediatly, whether it is >>>>>>important or not. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>In games against Fritz 8 Crafty will resign in not more than 8 moves: >>>>>> >>>>>>[Event "ATHLONXP"] >>>>>>[Site "ATHLONXP"] >>>>>>[Date "2003.01.5"] >>>>>>[Round "1"] >>>>>>[White "Fritz 8"] >>>>>>[Black "Crafty 19.01"] >>>>>>[Result "1-0"] >>>>>>[SetUp "1"] >>>>>>[FEN "4nnk1/8/6b1/4BP2/2N1B1K1/8/8/8 b - - 0 1"] >>>>>>[PlyCount "14"] >>>>>> >>>>>>1... Bxf5+ 2. Bxf5 Ng7 3. Be4 Nge6 4. Kf5 Kf7 5. Bd5 Ke7 6. Bd6+ Kd7 7. Ke5 >>>>>>Ng6+ 8. Kf6 1-0 >>>>> >>>>>First, Crafty well knows that KBB vs KN is a win. But it isn't seeing that >>>>>here until way deep into the search. In 99.999999999999% of these endgames >>>>>with 3 minors vs 2 minors, the game is a draw. Handling that one special case >>>>>here and there is not going to make it play better, and would almost certainly >>>>>hurt it overall as it really should say KBBN vs KNN is a draw in almost all >>>>>cases. >>>> >>>>I do not agree. IMHO, the stronger side should win in most cases. Especially if >>>>you score all positions as 0.01, you will allow the opponent to make progress, >>>>drive your king into a corner and seperate the knights. >>>> >>>>Regards, Munjong. >>> >>> >>>Do not agree with what? That king + 3 minors vs king + 2 minors is almost >>>always a draw? or that KBBN vs KNN is mostly drawn? I'd be willing to wager >>>that _most_ of the above positions are dead draws. >> >>Of course, I accept and respect your opinion in this regard. Nonetheless, allow >>me do differ: >> >>I suppose that most positions KBBN vs. KNN are won for the stronger side. In >>fact, I would not be surprised if in a couple of years, a properly working chess >>program which uses endgame databases (TB) announced forced checkmate for white >>after 1. ... Bxf5??. > >I wouldn't disagree there, but I do not believe that "most" are winnable. A >single piece is not enough. IE KQ vs KQN is not going to be winnable. KRB vs >KR is not winnable. A single piece is generally not enough, except in rare >cases. The two knights can cause real problems in trying to trade the white >knight for the black knight. And I still suspect that most are going to be >drawn. I think that more pieces help the stronger side. The examples that you give from tablebases are 2 pieces vs 1 piece and not 3 pieces vs 2 pieces when today there are no tablebases because 7 piece tablebases do not exist today. Uri
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