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Subject: Re: Kasparov - Deep Junior: and tablebases draw rule

Author: Miguel A. Ballicora

Date: 10:22:01 01/22/03

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On January 22, 2003 at 13:03:54, Matthew Hull wrote:

>On January 22, 2003 at 12:44:02, Sune Fischer wrote:
>
>>On January 22, 2003 at 12:25:14, Matthew Hull wrote:
>>>
>>>IMO Tablebases are the same as as the tables, bitboards, position.lrn, and
>>>book.lrn which are calculated and made available to a chess program about things
>>>that are knowns to work.  It is just a very big table which was not created by
>>>the intuition of man, but by brute machine calculation.
>>
>>No because the table bases are identical "in" all programs.
>>It has nothing to do with Junior, you might as well use TSCP with tb support.
>>
>>I can see the print on the box already:
>>
>>"Junior 8 - Beat the world chess champion GARRY KASPAROV"
>>
>>(small print on the back of the box)
>>"BTW: Junior needed to be in the table bases to win"
>
>
>Just like saying "Frenzee needed a good evaluation function to win", yes?  What
>is such a function but tables and logic.
>
>If you were to discover the secret of the PERFECT evalutaion function, you would
>include it in your program, yes?  Then the machine supremacy over man at chess
>would be achieved.  The tablebase is just one step in that direction.
>
>
>>
>>>The whole point of man/machine competition is to see if man's intuitive powers
>>>can be overcome by computer.  This rule is taking away part of a natural machine
>>>advantage.
>>>
>>> It would be like (if it were possible) taking away man's intuitive
>>>advantages in some way, because machines can't think intuitively.  It misses the
>>>whole point of the competition.
>>
>>There is no creativity or computation when it's hitting the tables.
>
>If that is true, then there is no creativity in any computation, period.  If
>your machine was fast enough, it would calculate to the end of the game.  It
>would be the same calcuation that created the tablebase.  It is all computation.
>
>>
>>Remember Garry is also "hitting" his own tables in a way, he knows if he can
>>enter a KRNKR endgame he has a draw.
>>I think grandmasters do this a lot, when in trouble they try and create an
>>endgame with good chances of drawing.
>>
>>To ask Garry to play against perfection is a rediculous demand,
>
>
>You mean endgame perfection.  That is the goal of computerchess, striving toward
>perfection, toward solution.  That's the point, yes?
>
>
>
>>I can tell you
>>now the tables are stronger, "hands down". What is there to prove by this, that
>>Garry can't play perfect? You want to humiliate him because he is not God?
>>Lame to the core.
>
>The machine has it's advantages, the man has his.  How is that lame?  It is the
>nature of man/machine contest.  The machine can play perfect endgames, but is a
>moron in closed positions.  The human is brilliant in closed positions, but
>plays imperfect endgames.
>
>Is it not wrong to cripple one side's advantages?

No, both. that is whay I said a gentlemen deal. Did you actually read the rules?

Miguel


>
>Regards,
>Matt
>
>
>
>
>>
>>-S.
>>
>>>This is why I think the rule is very bad.
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>Matt
>>>
>>>>
>>>>-S.
>>>>
>>>>>Matt
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>-S.



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