Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 07:40:49 01/23/03
Go up one level in this thread
On January 23, 2003 at 07:38:52, Rolf Tueschen wrote: >On January 22, 2003 at 21:31:08, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On January 22, 2003 at 14:59:09, Ricardo Gibert wrote: >> >>>On January 22, 2003 at 00:42:23, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On January 21, 2003 at 22:24:43, Ricardo Gibert wrote: >>>> >>>>>On January 21, 2003 at 17:19:53, Rolf Tueschen wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On January 21, 2003 at 16:16:19, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On January 21, 2003 at 15:25:21, Rolf Tueschen wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On January 21, 2003 at 14:35:50, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On January 21, 2003 at 09:17:36, Rolf Tueschen wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On January 21, 2003 at 09:09:49, Ricardo Gibert wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>On January 21, 2003 at 08:52:02, Rolf Tueschen wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>On January 20, 2003 at 23:00:55, Ricardo Gibert wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>On January 20, 2003 at 21:57:38, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>On January 20, 2003 at 21:32:22, Ricardo Gibert wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>On January 20, 2003 at 20:44:21, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>[snip] >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Round 6 Crafty vs Searcher >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>A near disaster for the first game of the second day. The same d4 opening >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>led to a similar position, but things did not go very well here. First score >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>out of book was -.42, which was typical for every 1. d4 game crafty played as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>white. But it was able to pull that up quickly normally. 10 moves out of book, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the score hadn't changed, showing that searcher was playing very well and with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a reasonable amount of understanding of the position. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Finally by move 24, Crafty was back to a slightly + score, and this held until >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>it started dropping as it misjudged the queen/rook attacking in the center. At >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>move 32, the score was -.68 after 16 plies. at move 35, the score was -1.5, at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>move 40 -2.0, -2.5 at move 50, -3 at move 60, and at this point Crafty dug >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in its heels and pulled the score back to -2.3 where it stayed for a long >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>while. But it slowly traded pawns, and the score started swinting back. By >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>move 80, it was -2.0 again, -1.5 by move 85, -1.0 by move 95, and it finally >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>reported a draw score at move 102. Of all the games it played, this was a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>really nice effort as it showed a lot of understanding about king rook and pawn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>endings, something I have worked on a lot over the years. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I find your last sentence surprising. Crafty was very lucky in this game that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Searcherx did not play 62...Re8 62.Kxg3 Rb8 winning easily. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Crafty says if you play Re8 it just plays Rb7 immediately, not Kg3. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Score doesn't change much... >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>It may be overlooking something, but it isn't going to let black get >>>>>>>>>>>>>>the rook behind the pawn... >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Maybe we are at the wrong move? IE you have two move 62's above. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Do you mean 61. Re8? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Yes. 61...Re8 62.Kxg3 Rb8 was my intention. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Going back to move 61, and playing Re8 Kg3 Rb8 I get Rd4 and Rb4. White >>>>>>>>>>>>>>loses one of the pawns on the h file, but only one. It isn't clear to me, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>without a lot of study, how black makes progress. The pawn is blockaded, so >>>>>>>>>>>>>>the black rook is stuck on the b file unless it gives check. The black >>>>>>>>>>>>>>king can't abandon the kingside or white will eat the g pawn and the hpawn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>should be enough to force the trade of the rook and a draw... >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>[D]8/1p1R2pk/5p2/7P/7P/5Kn1/4r3/8 b - - 0 60 >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>61...Re8 62.Kxg3 Rb8 63.Rd4 b5 64.Rb4 Kh6 65.Kg4 Rb7 66.Kh3 Kxh5 67.Kg3 g6 >>>>>>>>>>>>>68.Kh3 f5 69.Kg3 Rb6 70.Kh3 Rc6 71.Rb3 Rc4 is a prosaic and convincing win. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>A comparable position is available with many different continuations. One is >>>>>>>>>>>>your 61-Re8 others I pointed out in >>>>>>>>>>>>http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?278466 >>>>>>>>>>>>The point is that you always winn with the f/g free pawns if they are so good >>>>>>>>>>>>combined. No need to know the rule of the R behind the pawns because you give >>>>>>>>>>>>the b pawn away. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Kind regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>Rolf Tueschen >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Even though it is later given away, it handcuffs the defense giving time to make >>>>>>>>>>>preparations before giving up the b-pawn to win on the K-side, so it is still an >>>>>>>>>>>important tool. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>No doubt about it. But I was looking for the programmers and you said yourself >>>>>>>>>>that this is difficult to program. So I had a look at totally normal chess, >>>>>>>>>>calculable or countable if you like. And this position with the combined pawns >>>>>>>>>>is won and that is the whole thing. I meant the argument of the "difficult" >>>>>>>>>>Re8-b8 is even not necessary. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Rolf Tueschen >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>One of the problems here is that the f and g pawns are _not_ passed. The f pawn >>>>>>>>>is. The >>>>>>>>>g-pawn is not, because white hangs on to the h-pawn. Here are the problems I >>>>>>>>>see that have >>>>>>>>>to be solved: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>1. black's rook is behind the b-pawn. If black moves the rook without giving >>>>>>>>>check, the >>>>>>>>>pawn goes away as it is attacked by white's rook. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>2. I will assume the h5 pawn is going to "go". After Re8 Kxg3 Rb8 Rd4 b5 Rb4 >>>>>>>>>the rooks >>>>>>>>>are stuck. Black can move to b8/b7/b6. White can't move the rook or the pawn >>>>>>>>>advances. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>3. After black takes on h5 and white keeps the king at g3-h3 to hold the >>>>>>>>>h-pawn, black has >>>>>>>>>a couple of plans. But not all work. The king can't go help the rook, because >>>>>>>>>white's king makes >>>>>>>>>that a long path and it is close to the kingside pawns. the king can't win the >>>>>>>>>white h-pawn by >>>>>>>>>itself, and it can't get the rook up to attack it. So either the king goes to >>>>>>>>>the queenside to help >>>>>>>>>the b-pawn advance, or black tries advancing the f-pawn. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>White definitely has many problems here, but the question is "are they _all_ >>>>>>>>>unsolvable?" >>>>>>>>>It isn't that clear to me. One thing is for sure, it isn't an "easy win". It >>>>>>>>>is going to take a lot >>>>>>>>>of sweat and calculation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Sorry, Bob, you must have been tricked by your own program because GR is right, >>>>>>>>this is really easy. Just play through his variation. You as White have no >>>>>>>>chance to deviate from that line more or less. The plan of Black is so easy: >>>>>>>>Your R is on b4, then he puts his R on b6 and when it suits him he will go for >>>>>>>>the double attack on your last pawn h4. So the b pawn has no meaning after all. >>>>>>>>It is just to keep you in tension with your R. Then, when the last pawn of White >>>>>>>>has been taken, the rest is known theory. And you can't do anything against it. >>>>>>>>So - what I found very clever during the game, that Crafty played merry-go-round >>>>>>>>in the center with R and N and for all neutralized the dangerous d pawn, that >>>>>>>>does not draw because of the given final. And Black could win earlier, with my >>>>>>>>move Rf2 instead Rc3, and your K is outplaced. So you must search for >>>>>>>>alternatives way earlier. The structure with the double pawn is weak. First the >>>>>>>>d pawn and then Black also had the free b pawn afterwards, so basically it's not >>>>>>>>the good game by Crafty as I had thought at first. But overall you were very >>>>>>>>good with Ferret who normally should draw in the last round and then tie with >>>>>>>>you. Ferret played really sharp chess while you are extremely good in your time >>>>>>>>management, that was very obvious to me. Was one of the best results for you, >>>>>>>>right? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Rolf Tueschen >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>No. The ferret result was _bad_. A loss is bad. :) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>the ruffian and yace games were good. They were wins. :) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>However, until I have time to study the searcher endgame, I can't say much more. >>>>>>>It isn't an "easy" win in my opinion (by black). It might be winnable. But >>>>>>>there >>>>>>>are enough places to go wrong that a human might well have problems. IE it >>>>>>>would be interesting to play this against a human at a minute a move or whatever >>>>>>>to see how "easy" it turns out to be. :) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I would expect more than one "oh shit!" during the experiment. :) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Humans might think that they know all about rook endings. But if you go back >>>>>>>prior >>>>>>>to endgame tables, humans thought they knew all about KQ vs KR, until belle >>>>>>>showed >>>>>>>the world that the king and rook to _not_ stay together for best defense. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>So while I don't like white's position, until I study it in detail, I haven't >>>>>>>concluded it >>>>>>>is lost yet, myself... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>PROPOSAL: >>>>>> >>>>>>As Ricardo said he is now sure how to win against all defense. Bob, couldn't we >>>>>>organize that on ICC on a specific date so that many of us could follow? >>>>>>Ricardo, would that be possibl for you to go on ICC? >>>>>> >>>>>>Rolf Tueschen >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>As long as I get to play Black, I'm game if RH is. >>>>> >>>>>Next Sunday evening works for me. A blitz time control such as 5 mins plus a 5 >>>>>sec increment should be plenty. I'll play a slower time control if RH thinks >>>>>Crafty needs more time to play this well. >>>>> >>>>>BTW, I want to warn you about building this up too much. The position really is >>>>>quite lopsided, so the spectators are liable to find it anticlimactic. >>>>> >>>> >>>>I'm game, since I have not had much time to study the position. The time >>>>control depends on how quickly you think black can win. IE if it is pretty >>>>clear after 10-20 moves, then maybe the original 45 10 time control will be >>>>better, if it will be longer, then something faster... >>>> >>>>Main point will be to pick a time that I can convert to CST where I am, so >>>>that we show up at the same time, and not on different days. :) >>> >>> >>>6 pm pacific would be 8 pm central for you. Does that sound okay? We can decide >>>the time controls later. I'd like to wrap it all within an hour if possible. >>> >>> >> >>I agree about the hour. And 8pm sounds ok to me... > > >Please you two - it's still early enough - please make some advertising >messages, how and when to watch, if it could be defined for ICC, also please >make sure that guests are allowed to watch it. What is 8 CT in Europe? Often >such details are the reason for either many or few spectators. And also, could >you save the trials? Also, could you give the trials an understanding Subject >line? Just to give the whole act an experimental design - more or less. E.g. >both of you could say a) I will try this strategy now b) that one c) now I will >try to keep the pawn... or such. Thanks. > >Rolf Tueschen > This isn't that big a deal. It is an endgame position where white is in a horrible position trying to hold on to a draw if possible. I doubt many would be interested unless it was some theoretical endgame position from a famous game that was being tested or something. > >> >> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>[snip]
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