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Subject: Re: Deep Junior is better even if it is slower than Deeper Blue !

Author: Rolf Tueschen

Date: 12:38:14 01/27/03

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On January 27, 2003 at 15:01:00, Robert Hyatt wrote:

>On January 27, 2003 at 11:36:28, Sune Fischer wrote:
>
>>On January 27, 2003 at 10:57:26, Matthew Hull wrote:
>>
>>>[snip]
>>>
>>>
>>>>When did Junior ever "remember" the table bases?
>>>
>>>When did Frenzee ever remember the Ruy Lopez?  Same issue, yes?  But I don't see
>>>you arguing that opening books are unfair, a la Rolf Tueschen.
>>
>>That doesn't mean I don't agree with Rolf :)
>>
>>I just think it is possible to put a bit more of the engine personality into the
>>book, for instance with learning. If you win against a higher rated player,
>>remember this position as good, if you lose to a lower rated player don't play
>>this again.
>>
>>However, you can see clearly from the discussions going on here that the book is
>>not perceived as being part of Junior, statements like: "Junior was lost out of
>>book" clearly distinguishes the engine "Junior" from the book _used_ by Junior.
>>It is as though Junior didn't lose, it was the book that lost the game on behalf
>>of Junior! This is also the natural way to think, it really is two very
>>different pieces of software.
>
>I don't agree.  I have heard _many_ humans say "I got into a lost position from
>the book line I played."  Did they play the line, did they remember it, or did
>they do _both_???


Surely you didn't hear GM talk this way becauase it would be a contradiction in
itself because GM don't have books. They have analyses. But these are not books
yet. Of course GM remember their analyses but at least it's their stuff.


>
>I don't think the line is that sharp between book and engine, particularly when
>there
>is "learning" involved.
>
>
>>
>>The same applies to the egtbs, Junior wouldn't be winning, the egtbs would be.
>
>Suppose Junior had the code to _build_ the egtbs built in?  What then?
>
>Suppose the EGTBs could be built on the fly, on demand, while the program was
>running.  What then?


Suppose the engine would create a new engine on the fly - say Junior would give
birth to Fritz on the fly. Then Kasparov could really take the train back to
Moscow. BTW I announce copyright for that idea in CC! Why should that be
impossible? Could a Grandmaster NOT change his personality in the middle of a
game??? Aha! Bingo. QED. 500000$$$ please.


:)


Rolf Tueschen




>
>
>
>
>>
>>However I must agree (I guess) that "the machine" is all of the above, so
>>depends on what you want from the match. I think Kasparov wanted to play Junior
>>and not the egtbs, so for that reason I think the rules are fine.
>>
>>-S.
>>
>>
>>>:)
>>>Matt



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