Author: Rolf Tueschen
Date: 15:00:32 01/28/03
Go up one level in this thread
On January 27, 2003 at 21:15:52, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On January 27, 2003 at 15:38:14, Rolf Tueschen wrote: > >>On January 27, 2003 at 15:01:00, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On January 27, 2003 at 11:36:28, Sune Fischer wrote: >>> >>>>On January 27, 2003 at 10:57:26, Matthew Hull wrote: >>>> >>>>>[snip] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>When did Junior ever "remember" the table bases? >>>>> >>>>>When did Frenzee ever remember the Ruy Lopez? Same issue, yes? But I don't see >>>>>you arguing that opening books are unfair, a la Rolf Tueschen. >>>> >>>>That doesn't mean I don't agree with Rolf :) >>>> >>>>I just think it is possible to put a bit more of the engine personality into the >>>>book, for instance with learning. If you win against a higher rated player, >>>>remember this position as good, if you lose to a lower rated player don't play >>>>this again. >>>> >>>>However, you can see clearly from the discussions going on here that the book is >>>>not perceived as being part of Junior, statements like: "Junior was lost out of >>>>book" clearly distinguishes the engine "Junior" from the book _used_ by Junior. >>>>It is as though Junior didn't lose, it was the book that lost the game on behalf >>>>of Junior! This is also the natural way to think, it really is two very >>>>different pieces of software. >>> >>>I don't agree. I have heard _many_ humans say "I got into a lost position from >>>the book line I played." Did they play the line, did they remember it, or did >>>they do _both_??? >> >> >>Surely you didn't hear GM talk this way becauase it would be a contradiction in >>itself because GM don't have books. They have analyses. But these are not books >>yet. Of course GM remember their analyses but at least it's their stuff. >> > >I have heard the following: > >1. I did not remember the sequence of moves correctly, bungled the order, and >played into a lost position. (Kasparov, round 6, 1997 vs deep blue). Implies >he played _moves_ from memory. Not something he had "learned" by playing the >games himself. > >2. I overlooked that reply in my home-analysis I had prepared, and ended up >in a lost position. This has been stated by _many_ GM players over the years, >after they were "out-booked" by their opponent's pre-tournament or pre-match >preparation. > >3. My opponent had done his homework and hit me with a TN I had not seen >before, leaving me in a terrible position. > >Etc... Heard or read? Anyway I don't buy that. That is a chapter of research that hasn't been written yet. They don't talk too much abot this. > > >> >>> >>>I don't think the line is that sharp between book and engine, particularly when >>>there >>>is "learning" involved. >>> >>> >>>> >>>>The same applies to the egtbs, Junior wouldn't be winning, the egtbs would be. >>> >>>Suppose Junior had the code to _build_ the egtbs built in? What then? >>> >>>Suppose the EGTBs could be built on the fly, on demand, while the program was >>>running. What then? >> >> >>Suppose the engine would create a new engine on the fly - say Junior would give >>birth to Fritz on the fly. Then Kasparov could really take the train back to >>Moscow. BTW I announce copyright for that idea in CC! Why should that be >>impossible? Could a Grandmaster NOT change his personality in the middle of a >>game??? Aha! Bingo. QED. 500000$$$ please. >> >> > >Sure they can. Kramnik did. It backfired. Kasparov did. It backfired. No, also here I doubt that they tried it. Playing a "new" opening does't mean that change of personality we know from CC. Since I read that someone said that Kasparov played a new opening on Sunday let me say that Kasparov played the opening with both colours. Rolf Tueschen > >>:) >> >> >>Rolf Tueschen >> >> >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>>However I must agree (I guess) that "the machine" is all of the above, so >>>>depends on what you want from the match. I think Kasparov wanted to play Junior >>>>and not the egtbs, so for that reason I think the rules are fine. >>>> >>>>-S. >>>> >>>> >>>>>:) >>>>>Matt
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