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Subject: Re: Amir should use the Quad 1.9 Ghz instead of the 8x 1.6 !

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 10:16:48 01/30/03

Go up one level in this thread


On January 29, 2003 at 23:31:19, Matthew Hull wrote:

>On January 29, 2003 at 23:20:11, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>
>>On January 29, 2003 at 12:06:50, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>Bob let me explain to you. DIEP is written for machines which have a bit slower
>>latency for global memory accesses. whereas the world champs 2002 version wasn't
>>like that and would probably act like crafty on that 8 processor, the end of
>>august 2002 versions and further are using a new type of parallellism which
>>doesn't need much locking. Each processor takes care of itself without hurting
>>bandwidth while searching too much.
>>
>>There is no dead slow global locks which is killing the 8 processor thing of
>>course.
>>
>>therefore it works great for example at cc-NUMA machines and all types of Xeon
>>machines.
>
>
>Wow dude.  Impressive.  Could you supply some time-to-ply benchmarks for Diep on
>8-way Xeon vis-a-vis 4-way Xeon.  That would refute the proffessor like nothing
>else.
>
>Sincerely,
>Matt
>

Stand by for a hurricane caused by wild hand-waving...


>
>>
>>Now you have some examples of software written for fast latency shared memory
>>machines and then claim the thing is slower because the software isn't written
>>for such types of machines?
>>
>>That already should give you the answer. Writing parallel programs is 1 thing.
>>Writing something that works well without inventing numbers yourself is another
>>thing.
>>
>>
>>>On January 29, 2003 at 11:38:37, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>
>>>>On January 28, 2003 at 10:33:15, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On January 28, 2003 at 09:07:35, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On January 28, 2003 at 03:33:44, Mig Greengard wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>According to the tech I talked with, Amir and Shay were testing both machines
>>>>>>>before the match to see which one they would use. To my knowledge it wasn't
>>>>>>>decided until a day or two before the match. Obviously there isn't a big
>>>>>>>difference in performance.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Saludos, Mig
>>>>>>>http://www.chessninja.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>thanks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>DIEP onto the 8 processor 1.6 would be running 16 processes and speed would
>>>>>>be about expressed in K7:
>>>>>>  8 x 1.6 Ghz / 1.4 = 9 Ghz
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>No it wouldn't.  You haven't tried an 8-way intel box yet.  It doesn't scale
>>>>>nearly as well as the 2-way and 4-way intel boxes do.  The chipset for
>>>>>supporting 8 cpus is simply not very good...
>>>>
>>>>DIEP isn't demanding much bandwidth Bob in case you missed it, it works
>>>>great on a cc-NUMA machine too.
>>>
>>>It demands _enough_ bandwidth.  My comment wasn't only about "crafty" It was
>>>about the 8-way boxes in general.  I ran on a dell 8450, with 8 700mhz xeon
>>>processors, and it was about 1.5X faster than my box.  And again, _not_ with
>>>Crafty.  I ran 8 copies of the same thing on the 8450, 4 copies on the quad,
>>>and compared the total run times.  The 8450 was only about 50% faster when it
>>>should be 100% based on clock...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>The 8-way box using the same clock speed for the processors will only be about
>>>>>1.5X faster than the 4-way box, and that doesn't count parallel search overhead
>>>>>at all.
>>>>
>>>>That's not true. It's 8 times faster for good software. Of course there is
>>>>algorithmic loss but there is no sequential loss unless the software sucks,
>>>>to say it rude.
>>>
>>>Have you ever run on one?  Of course not.  I have.  So your "that's not true"
>>>is simply nonsense...  There are _plenty_ of good benchmarks that can be used
>>>to draw conclusions about the 8-way memory bottleneck problem.
>>>
>>>It _might_ be 8x faster if you can fit in the L2 cache (this machine had
>>>2mb of L2 per processor compared to my 1mb on my quad 700).  But if you have
>>>any memory bandwidth at all, it has a problem.  And a 8-probe hash table is
>>>more than enough to highlight the problem.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Doesn't say that it is easy to make software that can handle the latencies.
>>>>
>>>>It sure isn't easy to make a chessprogram that is having a good speedup
>>>>(without a too big sequential loss first like Zugzwang which was slowed down
>>>>first like 100 times or so in order to then have a decent speedup at like
>>>>256 processors; 50% speedup even incredible much i would be *very* happy with
>>>>around 15% already).
>>>>
>>>>But it is possible to make.
>>>>
>>>>DIEP is such a program that shows it can. DIEP runs like the sun on 8 cpu's
>>>>(2 nodes quad SGI), even at the slowest partitions (slowest latency speeds
>>>>are of course at the biggest partitions: 512 cpu partition).
>>>>
>>>>A 8 processor Xeon is hell for pc software like Fritz, Junior, Crafty, but it
>>>>is very good for DIEP.
>>>>
>>>>Best regards,
>>>>Vincent



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